Formula E

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
mzso
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Re: Formula E

Post by mzso » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:36 pm

Capharol wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:43 am
was thinking the same, latest rumour is that Haas threathens to leave but I haven't read anything about Merc wanna leave F1, and why should they? they earn the biggest part of the prize money, since the Hybrid aera they dominate F1 ..... unless you can provide some article which says anything near that Merc will leave F1 it's all just a unfounded rumour
Precisely. They're probably making a lot of money at this point. Winning the championships, selling PU's to two teams.

Though Ferrari's probably earning a lot more, due to the cleptocratic handouts of Ecclestone.

Andres125sx
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Re: Formula E

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:49 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:47 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:03 am
Toto Wolff is the husband of Venturi´s Team Principal, Susie Wolff.

But apart from this, Mercedes is leaving F1 soon, and they´ll focus on FE. This speaks volumes about F1 and FE future...
I've not seen the Mercedes quitting F1 rumours for a while - any source? Normally it's Red Bull who are about to quit.
No I can´t remind the actual comment, and can´t find anything now, except Mercedes is quitting DTM and entering FE, so maybe I just got confused... ignore my comment :oops:

Andres125sx
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Re: Formula E

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:01 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:42 am
strad wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:38 am
Wheel Spin penalties?
I haven't gotten to watch the full length race yet. Coverage here is poor.
Watched highlights and didn't notice any mention of wheel spin penalties.
How do you get a penalty for wheel spin?
For going over the peak power allowed in the series (200kW in the race, 250kW in qualifying). Happens over a bump when the wheels become unloaded. Normally the software is tuned in practice to avoid it but in Saudi there was no practice.
Unloaded, or when they´re loaded?

The power a electric motor provide is not fixed as an ICE, it depends on the load. You can ask them to move a much higher than normal load and it will move it, but at a dramatic power level wich will burn it in seconds. When there´s wheelspin because of a bump the load is decreased because the wheel is (almost) in the air, so the power goes down. It´s when the car land from the bump when the load and power goes up.

I´m wondering how do they tune it to not exceed the power limit while they´re close to it constantly :?:

Andres125sx
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Re: Formula E

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:14 pm

marmer wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:53 pm
i missed qualli. seemed abit of a strange concept last time. why even have a power limit for qualifaction should be allowed to use all the car has/driver is able to use in 1 lap
I´m not a fan of the qualifying format either

About the power allowed for qualy, free power for qualy would be amazing, but I think the limit exist because of the battery. Allowing more power means higher discharges for the battery wich push it more and reduce the lifespan. FE at this point is heavily restricted by the battery, it´s just the second race of first battery to do a whole race, so I guess they´re being very conservative about the battery. If they manage the season ok probably next one they´ll increase the power a bit more.


But I had never considered free power for qualy, it´s a nice idea :) ... edit: and I like it even more when I think about it. It´s perfectly plausible, get what you want from your motor and battery for 1 lap, and assume the risks you want to assume. If power used is public then people can compare and will wonder about how X team is using so much power without smoking something. Love it :D

marmer
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Re: Formula E

Post by marmer » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:47 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:14 pm
marmer wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:53 pm
i missed qualli. seemed abit of a strange concept last time. why even have a power limit for qualifaction should be allowed to use all the car has/driver is able to use in 1 lap
I´m not a fan of the qualifying format either

About the power allowed for qualy, free power for qualy would be amazing, but I think the limit exist because of the battery. Allowing more power means higher discharges for the battery wich push it more and reduce the lifespan. FE at this point is heavily restricted by the battery, it´s just the second race of first battery to do a whole race, so I guess they´re being very conservative about the battery. If they manage the season ok probably next one they´ll increase the power a bit more.


But I had never considered free power for qualy, it´s a nice idea :) ... edit: and I like it even more when I think about it. It´s perfectly plausible, get what you want from your motor and battery for 1 lap, and assume the risks you want to assume. If power used is public then people can compare and will wonder about how X team is using so much power without smoking something. Love it :D
quali is say day right? would make it intresting if they had to use a fia branded charge point and there was a set time from end of quali to race start. give enough time so it could be recharged fully if car does say a couple of full power laps but if they want more it could cost them race battery if they can't recharge it in time

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Re: Formula E

Post by hollus » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:12 pm

Interesting interview (of sorts) with Alejandro Agag. Mind you, from a not neccessarily neutral journalist.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/16/eve ... ndro-agag/
...not because they are easy, but because they are hard!

mzso
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Re: Formula E

Post by mzso » Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:04 am

jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:42 am
strad wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:38 am
Wheel Spin penalties?
I haven't gotten to watch the full length race yet. Coverage here is poor.
Watched highlights and didn't notice any mention of wheel spin penalties.
How do you get a penalty for wheel spin?
For going over the peak power allowed in the series (200kW in the race, 250kW in qualifying). Happens over a bump when the wheels become unloaded. Normally the software is tuned in practice to avoid it but in Saudi there was no practice.
Any source for this? Because as far as I know about electronics its should be fairly easy to implement a hard limit which couldn't be defeated so easily as a spinning wheel.
Also, the wheels spinning should have an opposite effect, without load the power usually drops in electric motors.

jjn9128
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Re: Formula E

Post by jjn9128 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:11 pm

mzso wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 11:04 am
Any source for this? Because as far as I know about electronics its should be fairly easy to implement a hard limit which couldn't be defeated so easily as a spinning wheel.
Also, the wheels spinning should have an opposite effect, without load the power usually drops in electric motors.
Pretty sure that's how Franchitti/Nicholls explained it in comms... I usually know better than to believe what they're saying but I assumed they got a message on the timing screens about the nature of the penalty.

Techeetah say it was on regen - apparently they have a new BBW system this year.
https://www.autosport.com/fe/news/14069 ... -penalties
#aerogandalf

bill shoe
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Re: Formula E

Post by bill shoe » Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:18 am

hollus wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:12 pm
Interesting interview (of sorts) with Alejandro Agag. Mind you, from a not neccessarily neutral journalist.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/16/eve ... ndro-agag/
He mentions that Formula E owns the commercial rights (from the FIA) for single-seat full-electric racing until 2039, so for 20 more years. If F1 wanted to go full electric before 2039 then they would have to ask Agag/FE for permission. Got me thinking about where this could lead--

Gen-1 Formula E could do approx 180 hp peak for 22.5 minutes of racing (car change required to complete 45 minute race).

Gen-2 Formula E can obviously put out over 200 hp peak for a full 45 minute race, so a doubling (or more) of capability in 5 years! Huge rate of improvement!

Formula 1 can put out 5 times as much power (~1000 hp) for a 90-minute race and that's with huge package of rule limits to prevent it from doing even better. But still, let's call it 10x or 1-order of magnitude (!!!) better than current FE. This seems to be roughly at the limits of track safety (runoff area) and driver capability (G-load).

So we have Formula E's very fast rate of improvement vs. Formula 1's very high level of capability. And a 20-year FE contract. Will FE catch F1 before the FE contract runs out in 2039?

If FE continues to double capability every 5 years then this implies approx. 3 doublings (or 15 years) until it's about equal to F1. But F1 is certain it can be at 2019 speeds in 2039, so no risk there. FE is far from sure they can continue the spectacular rate of improvement for 15 more years, so very big uncertainty.

Is this the underlying battle in motorsports for the next two decades?

Zynerji
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Re: Formula E

Post by Zynerji » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:08 am

Nope. They would merge if it was that close.

marmer
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Re: Formula E

Post by marmer » Sun Jan 20, 2019 1:27 pm

would like to see a FE Junior cat using gen 1 cars racing before the current race as warm up for the crowd and give more chance to deveop talent. maybe all sim racers to get a chance? or local talent from the race nation

mzso
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Re: Formula E

Post by mzso » Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:18 pm

bill shoe wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:18 am
Gen-2 Formula E can obviously put out over 200 hp peak for a full 45 minute race, so a doubling (or more) of capability in 5 years! Huge rate of improvement!
No improvement at all, battery technology didn't change to any significant degree. They could have had this from the start. They just went for poor packaging and cheap cells it seems.
And battery tech doesn't work like that. There won't be constant improvement. Either there will be moderate improvement by improving packing and tweaking the chemistery. Or someone will market a brand new chemistry (probably a solid-state li-metal anode chemistry) and there will be a significant leap.

Either way I don't see batteries catching up to F1 anytime soon, if ever. Maybe at one point with 2-4 battery swaps you could have the same amount of power.

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Re: Formula E

Post by Andres125sx » Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:55 am

bill shoe wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 12:18 am
hollus wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:12 pm
Interesting interview (of sorts) with Alejandro Agag. Mind you, from a not neccessarily neutral journalist.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/16/eve ... ndro-agag/
He mentions that Formula E owns the commercial rights (from the FIA) for single-seat full-electric racing until 2039, so for 20 more years. If F1 wanted to go full electric before 2039 then they would have to ask Agag/FE for permission. Got me thinking about where this could lead--

Gen-1 Formula E could do approx 180 hp peak for 22.5 minutes of racing (car change required to complete 45 minute race).

Gen-2 Formula E can obviously put out over 200 hp peak for a full 45 minute race, so a doubling (or more) of capability in 5 years! Huge rate of improvement!

Formula 1 can put out 5 times as much power (~1000 hp) for a 90-minute race and that's with huge package of rule limits to prevent it from doing even better. But still, let's call it 10x or 1-order of magnitude (!!!) better than current FE. This seems to be roughly at the limits of track safety (runoff area) and driver capability (G-load).

So we have Formula E's very fast rate of improvement vs. Formula 1's very high level of capability. And a 20-year FE contract. Will FE catch F1 before the FE contract runs out in 2039?

If FE continues to double capability every 5 years then this implies approx. 3 doublings (or 15 years) until it's about equal to F1. But F1 is certain it can be at 2019 speeds in 2039, so no risk there. FE is far from sure they can continue the spectacular rate of improvement for 15 more years, so very big uncertainty.

Is this the underlying battle in motorsports for the next two decades?
It´s only the battery what prevent electric cars from beating F1 cars fair and square :wink:

Electric motors can provide that power or even more, and they can even provide it to one wheel each for thrust vectoring.

Imagine if someone build a track with wireless charging under the tarmac so FE cars don´t need a battery anymore. They will be faster than F1 cars next day, they will be much lighter, electric motors provide a lot more torque at a much wider window... it´s only the battery what makes this situation hypothetic

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Formula E

Post by Tommy Cookers » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:48 am

Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 7:55 am
.....
Imagine if someone build a track with wireless charging under the tarmac so FE cars don´t need a battery anymore. They will be faster than F1 cars next day, they will be much lighter, electric motors provide a lot more torque at a much wider window... it´s only the battery what makes this situation hypothetic
if the car doesn't need a battery why would it need a motor ?
the track would be the stationary part of a motor and the car(s) would be the moving part(s) of that motor
a very expensive and inefficient system - just like yours

constant torque ICEs have been made and they worked
F1 is constant torque design but fuel rate is rigged to prevent constant torque running and compel traditional 'racy' running

there's no free lunches with EMs or any other motive system

Andres125sx
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Re: Formula E

Post by Andres125sx » Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:28 am

Nobody said a word about free lunches

Constant torque ICEs are the target, what all manufacturers try to reach, but none accomplished. F1 manufacturers neither. They're constant torque when compared with traditional ICEs which were very peaky, but when compared with an EM they're not, far from flat curve at any rpm