Formula E

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
NL_Fer
NL_Fer
99
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: Formula E

Post

Wouldn’t a truck on natural gas be much cheaper than sustainable diesel?

User avatar
Zynerji
136
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: Formula E

Post

mzso wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:32 am
RedNEO wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:11 pm
And how did that work out for you? I’ll remind you.. it worked out that the majority agreed that the direction we and F1 as a byproduct are going isn’t electric but sustainable fuels.
Again, sustainable fuels and electric are not mutually exclusive.
And no-one is going towards sustainable fuels besides F1 so far. Road cars are definitely not headed in that direction.
Besides F1 going for sustainable fuels won't reduce the electric part, which will probably have more significance in the future formula.
Um, E85 (very readily available in the US) and FlexFuel vehicles (available since 2005ish) would like to disagree with you on this...

DChemTech
DChemTech
71
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: Formula E

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:42 pm
mzso wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:32 am
RedNEO wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:11 pm
And how did that work out for you? I’ll remind you.. it worked out that the majority agreed that the direction we and F1 as a byproduct are going isn’t electric but sustainable fuels.
Again, sustainable fuels and electric are not mutually exclusive.
And no-one is going towards sustainable fuels besides F1 so far. Road cars are definitely not headed in that direction.
Besides F1 going for sustainable fuels won't reduce the electric part, which will probably have more significance in the future formula.
Um, E85 (very readily available in the US) and FlexFuel vehicles (available since 2005ish) would like to disagree with you on this...
They are, but there is by far insufficient biofuel to provide for the whole fuel market, and for synthetic fuels (which are not on the market yet), the return on energy is very poor compared to batteries (you need to put much more energy in per kWh of 'usable' energy for driving). E85 is used to somewhat reduce the emissions from petrol cars. But in terms of development, all major car producers are targeting electric, with an excursion to hydrogen here and there.

User avatar
RedNEO
35
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:58 am

Re: Formula E

Post

mzso wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:32 am
RedNEO wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:11 pm
And how did that work out for you? I’ll remind you.. it worked out that the majority agreed that the direction we and F1 as a byproduct are going isn’t electric but sustainable fuels.
Again, sustainable fuels and electric are not mutually exclusive.
And no-one is going towards sustainable fuels besides F1 so far. Road cars are definitely not headed in that direction.
Besides F1 going for sustainable fuels won't reduce the electric part, which will probably have more significance in the future formula.
You underestimate sustainable fuels and the power of F1 to drive technology. Road cars are most definitely going in that direction because billions of them will be already compatible with these new fuels.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... l/6661179/
Ferrari boss Binotto says switch to sustainable fuels “is a big deal”

The great shift in fuels is moving rapidly. Many countries have introduced a new greener type of fuel, E10, which contains 10% bioethanol, distilled from plant material. Next year F1 will adopt this fuel and then will take the lead with a move to 100% sustainable fuels. If F1 has its way the technology developed in F1 will soon find its way onto the forecourts and into the billions of cars already on the road around the world.


“It is certainly a big deal. It's essential for the roadmap of Formula One becoming sustainable,” says Binotto. “F1 has always been a platform of innovation, not only for performance, reliability, and technology, but it can be innovation for sustainability. Full-electric is not the only solution. We believe that there are other solutions like hybridization with fully sustainable fuels.

“Incredible advances in battery technologies were achieved in recent years,” says Kapitány. But liquid fuels have a greater energy density, giving us tremendous opportunity to produce high performance. That's one of the reasons why it is important for us that we work together with Ferrari.

“To get to a sustainable fuel, there are different kinds of ways. And Formula One is the right testbed for these kinds of activities. We are already producing second-generation ethanol in commercial quantity. It's not produced from the edible part of the sugarcane but from the agricultural leftover. We also have a patented solution called IH2 Technology, which is producing drops in quality fuels from agricultural or household waste. And we are no stranger to e-fuels, synthetic fuels, synthetic components, and also the power of liquids.


“Sustainable fuels represent another alternative to EVs. EV's are very good, and they're coming and they will be part of the portfolio. But we also need to be making sure that we are offering different solutions, a mosaic of solutions for our customers and that's the reason why we are so keen to work in this world.”

So what are the next steps? “Next steps in terms of roadmaps,” says Binotto, “Are working very closely with the FIA, F1, the other teams and suppliers, together with Shell in our case to make sure that we are designing the right specifications and regulations for a fully sustainable fuel for 2025. We are working very hard on that point because we understand the urgency of it, and we understand how important it is for the future of motorsport as well.”

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Formula E

Post

Good read.

While it comes from agricultural leftover it may be a very good option. They look very optimistic about them, but otoh FE owns FIA rights for single seater EVs so they might be interested in that route because that´s the only one for F1 :roll:

User avatar
RedNEO
35
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:58 am

Re: Formula E

Post

Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:46 pm
Good read.

While it comes from agricultural leftover it may be a very good option. They look very optimistic about them, but otoh FE owns FIA rights for single seater EVs so they might be interested in that route because that´s the only one for F1 :roll:
I think that’s the point of the article.. Sustainable fuels makes owning the rights to EV single seaters irrelevant. It’s no longer in F1’s future or road cars to go EV only.

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Formula E

Post

RedNEO wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:04 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:46 pm
Good read.

While it comes from agricultural leftover it may be a very good option. They look very optimistic about them, but otoh FE owns FIA rights for single seater EVs so they might be interested in that route because that´s the only one for F1 :roll:
I think that’s the point of the article.. Sustainable fuels makes owning the rights to EV single seaters irrelevant. It’s no longer in F1’s future or road cars to go EV only.
What came first the chicken or the egg? :mrgreen:

It does not matter actually, either way they´re diverting efforts wich is great for all of us :D

DChemTech
DChemTech
71
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: Formula E

Post

"F1 manager that is shoulder-deep in the gasguzzling industry and sponsored by a petrol company propagates liquid carbon fuels"... what else is new?

Nothing that Maestro Binotto claims is going to take away the inherent energy inefficiency of e-fuels and the severe land use restrictions of biofuels though.

Doesn't mean they might not have some success. After all, a lot of influential people have financial interests in vested industry, and many more noninfluential individuals have their emotional interests. Large expenditures of scarce renewable energy on making inefficient synfuels will slow down the overalm energy transition by taking away resources from better allocations (thus doubly helping the fossil industry remain in place), but yeah, it would not be the first time that attachment to inefficient luxuries prevents more rational and impactful choices.

mzso
mzso
41
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Formula E

Post

RedNEO wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:50 pm
You underestimate sustainable fuels and the power of F1 to drive technology.
Since when does F1 drive anything? At best it pioneered some stuff that may have become useful in the real world over time. But it has not been doing that for a long time.
RedNEO wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:50 pm
Road cars are most definitely going in that direction because billions of them will be already compatible with these new fuels.
"Most definitely", by the fact that only electric cars will be allowed in several states by 2030-40?
Or that no-one ever produced economically viable bio-fuel?
Last edited by mzso on Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mzso
mzso
41
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Formula E

Post

RedNEO wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:50 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... l/6661179/
This looks like an advertisement piece for Shell.
I think this is a key part:
“Incredible advances in battery technologies were achieved in recent years,” says Kapitány. But liquid fuels have a greater energy density, giving us tremendous opportunity to produce high performance.
Indeed. Where power to weight is cardinal it might carve out a niche. But not with ICE, because that still wastes a lot more than fuel cells, among various other issues.

User avatar
Andres125sx
362
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:15 am
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Formula E

Post

mzso wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 7:11 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:50 pm
You underestimate sustainable fuels and the power of F1 to drive technology.
Since when does F1 drive anything? At best it pioneered some stuff that may have become useful in the real world over time. But it has not been doing that for a long time.
RedNEO wrote:
Tue Sep 07, 2021 3:50 pm
Road cars are most definitely going in that direction because billions of them will be already compatible with these new fuels.
"Most definitely", by the fact that only electric cars will be allowed in several states by 2030-40?
Or that no-one ever produced economically viable bio-fuel?
Is that the exact wording they use? Only electric cars or only emissions free cars?

Fair question, I just have that doubt

DChemTech
DChemTech
71
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: Formula E

Post

There are several countries that have legislation stating "only electric".

For the record, I am conceptually opposed to that because there are alternatives (yes, these include synfuel), and the challenge is picking the right option for the right niche. In a fully fair and rational market that should boil down to "picking the most economical option" (throwing away 85% energy when there is a more efficient alternatives for road cars would be economically prohibitive, and so would dragging tons of batteries into the air be).

But the market is not perfect; politics, emotions, and a lack of accountability for externalities come into play, anf there are infrastructure considerations that may make focus on a limited set of options desirable. Hence, in some cases a top-down decision to focus on a single tech may be the most pragmatic option.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
580
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Formula E

Post

DChemTech wrote:
Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:02 am
There are several countries that have legislation stating "only electric".
... in some cases a top-down decision to focus on a single tech may be the most pragmatic option.
a boost to fanatics everywhere ?

most countries won't replace all fossil-fuel electricity with nominally carbon-free electricity by eg '2030-40'
or the forseeable
until then using such electricity to de-fossilise cars just means using more fossil fuel somewhere else
after then using such electricity to de-fossilise cars just means using more fossil fuel somewhere else
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

DChemTech
DChemTech
71
Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:31 am
Location: Delft, NL

Re: Formula E

Post

Due to the overall higher well to wheel efficiency (and better options to capture pollutants in centralized elec. generation), even if the grid is mostly fossil, there will still be benefits.

(Not when making synfuel on a partially fossil grid though, in that case you will burn large quantities of real fossil fuel to make smaller quantities of synthetic fossil fuel...;))

User avatar
henry
329
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:49 pm
Location: England

Re: Formula E

Post

There seems to be a perpetual misreading of “selling” as “using” here.

Many Governments have said they will ban the sales of new fossil fuelled cars during the ‘30s. In the U.K. to get to 100% BEV sales in 2030 through natural growth required* a compound growth rate of 1.5%. At that rate by 2030 BEVs would represent 25% of the fleet. So 3/4 of vehicles being used would still be fossil fuel powered in 2031.

At that point, 2031, the BEV fleet would be using about 16 GWhr/yr which is about 5% of current U.K. generating capacity. Not so hard to imagine if other energy saving measures take place.

I don’t expect that the transition will progress smoothly at this rate but it I think it gives some perspective to the consequences of what’s been announced. Personally I don’t think it will be enough but any acceleration will be a complex and difficult social engineering feat. I’m not sure how many governments will be able to achieve that and keep themselves in power.

* I use the past tense because I did these calculations in 2019.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus