No, just look at the time and the average speed, 200 km/h means that it was certainly dry for the F1 and it’s absolutely out of reach for a Group B (or any car bar F1 for that matter). Obviously I’m assuming that the reported laptime (1’18”1) is correct, if it’s not then it’s not even worth discussing.manchild wrote: Perhaps Toivonen was using full track lenght on dry day and perhaps F1 qualifying that year was under the rain?
Also a F1 car of mid 80s was, compared with today, unrestricted technology and had possibly more power, still a current F1 car is several seconds, per lap (hence in just 4-5 km), faster than a mid 80s F1 was.Guest wrote: on what grounds is a modern wrc car better at cornering? the b groups had unrestricted technology, when today everything is restricted. ofcourse things such as engine management and four wheel drive have evolved, but not enought to make up for over 400kgs of mass and all the aero devices, including skirts, which many of the cars(at least audi and lancia) had. cars havnt changed that much, the 83(not quite positive on the year) audi sport quattro2.2t beat the new mitsubishi evo9 on dry tarmac, on track. recently.
http://www.answers.com/topic/group-b-1...For instance, the Lancia Delta S4 could accelerate from 0 to 100 km/h in 2.3 seconds on a gravel road. Henri Toivonen drove an S4 around Estoril, the Portuguese Grand Prix circuit, so quickly that he would have qualified sixth for the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix. Nigel Mansell sampled a Peugeot 205 T16 and said it could out-accelerate his F1 car...
http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/Cars_Background2.htmlHenri Toivonen drove a Delta S4 around the Portuguese Grand Prix track, Estoril, so quickly that he could have qualified just five places from the pole in the 1986 Grand Prix race.
...To give you an idea of the kind of performance GroupB cars were capable of I'll mention that in the 1986 season Henri Toivonen made two laps around the Estoril circuit, during a stage of the Portuguese rally, the fastest of which, in 1 minute and 18,1 seconds, would have qualified him in the sixth position of the F1 Grand Prix that same season. Ayrton Senna had the Pole Position in the 1986 Portuguese Grand Prix in 1 minute and 16,7 seconds...Toivonen was using the Lancia Delta S4 and was accompanied by his usual co-driver Sergio Cresto.
Honestly manchild, no matter how many websites report it as a proven fact (especially because they have very likely a common origin), in the moment you calculate the average speed and you see it’s close to 200 km/h, then you know that it can’t be.manchild wrote: So meny sites are mentioning that 6th place... I'm not saying yes or no, just mentioning. Perhapes we should write to Lancia and ask for official info
This is what I found on another forum...Reca wrote:As for asking Lancia... I thought that the opinion of the Lancia team manager of the time was pretty close to an official answer
...I asked this from Henri`s brother Harri Toivonen (fine rally/race driver he too, well ok their father Pauli win the Monte Carlo!!).
So, here is: Henri drove some tarmac tests in Estoril (yes the GP track) with Lancia and results were as it is here mentioned! He had "passanger" next to him, who had some "health problems" after rounds! The driving lines were a little diffent than F1 cars had, because of slide!....
F1 cars in 1986 had turbos and only turbo (no supercharger) and I think there was still great turbo lag because turbos back than didn't have variable geometry (I could be wrong).Spencifer_Murphy wrote:...But that does not change the fundamental fact that F1 cars had more power and weighed less, and had NO turbo lag at all...cos there wasnt a turbo or a supercharger.
Sliding (power slide) is technique used deliberately and if used deliberately (not accidetaly ) than it enables faster passing trough certain corners than driving trough them with no sliding.Spencifer_Murphy wrote:...I just dont believe that a Gp. B car could lap a circuit as fast as an F1 car...especially when SLIDING! Sliding scrubs off speed when you race on tarmac - fact. (Then again...tht could be wrong too )