Next Generation of World Rally Cars

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loukayne
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Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by loukayne » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:37 pm

Just a forum for discussion on the next generation of World Rally Cars. What would you like to see changed in the technical aspects of the cars? The FIA had planned a technical overhaul of the formula in 2017 but have decided to wait because the recent additions of Hyundai and soon to be Toyota to the championship. For me I would Like to see:

- 1.6L Direct Injection Turbo Engine (Global Race Engine)
- 34mm Restrictor
- Variable timing systems (banned now)
- Keeping around 300-330 BHP
- Bring torque back to >500 Nm

- Return of exotic materials that were banned/controlled in 2011
- Increasing the use but still control materials such as:
- Carbon Fibers/Aramid
- Titanium
- Magnesium
- Ceramics
- Etc.

- Active Differentials
- Active Central Diff.
- LSD/Active Front and Rear Diffs.

- Hybrid technologies
- Road Sections
- Boost Mode (Petrol+ Electric)

- Run Flat Tires Mousse


I know they say that active differentials cost too much like exotic materials but this is the one of the pinnacle of motorsport, likewise to Formula 1. We need to bring the sparkle back into the WRC and I know these current WRC are beautiful but we need to bring the agility of these cars to the technical prominence of the 1st and 2nd generation WRC's together. This will be 2020 or 2021 before an technical change, so the ways thats these parts are manufactured and sourced should be much more refined, thus costing half the price they were paying in the mid 2000s. Hybrid technologies will hopefully also come along way from now, and being easily incorporated into a WRC. If we even look back into the 2008 when Citroen released its C4 HYmotion4 WRC, the technology in the hybrid system used on the car would be a perfect implementation for a WRC. The car used electric energy to run on the road sections between stages and has a boost mode in the stages where the drives can strategically use power from both engines (petrol and electric) to gain a "boost". The run flat tire mousse that was used in the champion prior to the 2008 season should also be implemented again because it used on road cars now and it would be a great marketing for tire manufacturers. It would help save thousands on body work from the exploded tires and would help cars get to the finish line of rallies such as Greece and Argentina where the rocks are the size of your head.

I know they restricted the champions formula in 2011 to save costs but the rally cars prior to 2011 and even more so prior to 2006 were some of the most technically advanced race car still to this day. I think with economy on a turn around from the late 2000s and many advances in the engineering and the manufacturing industry still to come, we can start to make these World Rally Cars into the technical marvels they need to be when running in a world's top motorsport like the World Rally Championship.

This is just my opinion on what I would like to see. Write in the comments below what you would like to see in the next generation of World Rally Cars.


http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... A_2011.pdf
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/sport/c4wrc ... -wrc1.html

MadMatt
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by MadMatt » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:59 pm

Great, another member that I can discuss with about WRC. Although I like your ideas, and I had same suggestions before working the WRC, but if we are realistic, most of them cannot be implemented.

What has to be understood is the difference between manufacturer supported teams (VW, Hyundai, and in 2 years Toyota), and privately entered teams (M-Sport, Citroën). The manufacturers would not mind too much pushing for more advanced (and more expensive, this is the main argument) cars, while the latter won't because they just cannot afford it.

I like the idea of having hybrid technology, but I would just divide it in electric mode for road sections and petrol engine for the stages. Again, this would induce huge development costs that would make M-Sport and Citroen withdraw from WRC but it it would indeed be a great thing for WRC's future.

VVT is not needed imo, eventho it can help to save fuel and improve performance, they could just allow more boost to have more torque, but the speed of the cars is aready really high (especially in corners). If we increase torque we would have to limit corner speed to avoid it being too dangerous (harder tyres maybe).

When you see what the cars are capable of with the current rules which restrict a lot the exotic materials, I doubt there is a need to go back with these, but I would tend to leave more room for development on current parts, for example reduce the minimum weight of some components.

Ah active diffs. Something I've always wanted back in the WRC but again COSTS. My idea is to have a standard active diff and standard diff control parts. The teams would "only" be able to develop the diff maps and not the hardware. Still, there are millions of possibilities so the team with biggest budget will be able to test more deeply the settings. But on an engineering side of things this would just be fantastic.

I used to be really sad to see all the technology from the mid-2000s cars go away, but the current cars are much faster, and safety rules haven't really changed over the years, so I think the cars are a bit on the edge at the moment. I don't like to say this so I hope the FIA won't see this but the safety should be improved (what happened to the "we should bring the driver and co-driver closer to the center of the car, away from the doors"?).

You also have to question what brings WRC to the manufactuers? They want that people think the cars are strong, they can go over all kinds of terrains, they want the action to be spectacular, and we have all that already. But what would be good (on a commercial side of things and engineering (this point is also important for the people involved)), is to bring back some technology in the cars.

But not as complicated as LeMans. Hell I don't even know what's going on and I'm a motorsport fan.

RacingManiac
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by RacingManiac » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:42 pm

They should only allow active diff if its available on the production vehicle, this way it'll let us in on the fun too...:D

FW17
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by FW17 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:47 pm

They should just allow the peugeot 208 t16

Image

MadMatt
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by MadMatt » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:01 pm

RacingManiac wrote:They should only allow active diff if its available on the production vehicle, this way it'll let us in on the fun too...:D
Been on the STI Subarus and Lancer Evos from the early 2000s.

RacingManiac
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by RacingManiac » Thu Feb 19, 2015 9:39 pm

MadMatt wrote:
RacingManiac wrote:They should only allow active diff if its available on the production vehicle, this way it'll let us in on the fun too...:D
Been on the STI Subarus and Lancer Evos from the early 2000s.
Yes, but not on the Focus or whatnot...and also probably not the same system. I'd say let them use it if its a production based design.

MadMatt
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by MadMatt » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:17 pm

Yea but then you end up having manufacturers doing road models that are made for the WRC, as it used to be the case with group A 20 years ago for example. Nowadays you have VW with the Polo "WRC Edition" from which the proper WRC is based on which features things in chassis design that helped VW to achieve the efficiency they have now. It already starts with the road car and for that you need manufacturer support.

loukayne
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by loukayne » Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:48 am

I know cost is the biggest thing and I would hate to see Ford/M-Sport and Citroen leave the sport because they have been by far the most influential teams in the WRC in the past 15 years. I really hope that Ford will come back on strong with M-Sport in the future and that Citroen will stay in the championship and hopefully see some extra funding from their WTCC success now and in the future. Also Citroen have some sharp prospect in their grassroots, ironically both named Sebastien (Chardonnet/Lefebvre), so I hope they keep these guys on to hopefully see more Citroen WRT success in the future. If these two step up in the Citroen ranks that leaves M-Sport with some great talent to choose from like Meeke and Breen.

I really hope the FIA can make a good compromise between cost and technology. I doubt will see a technical change until at least 2020, so by then I really hope they can add some more relative technology to these cars and keep it at the 400-500k mark.

I might take this on with a group of classmates for our thesis project next year to come up with a well thought out concept for these Gen IV WRC, so keep the ideas and discussion coming as it will help greatly.

loukayne
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by loukayne » Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:42 pm

I also agree with Matt, there is defiantly no need for homologation specials because manufactures have greatly increased their rally car lines from WRC, R5, R3, R2 and R1. If you want to get in on the action you could easily get a R1 or even R2 rally car for 40-50k, which I would consider a reasonable price for a homologation special nowadays.

RacingManiac
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by RacingManiac » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:18 pm

The way to limit homologation special is up the production number. If you put your limit at 10000 cars, it will become cost prohibitive to do homologation special, so you HAVE to make clever production engineering to make good WRC platform.

loukayne
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by loukayne » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:13 pm

Does anyone know if the active differentials from the Gen. 1 and 2 cars were made by Xtrac, Sadev, etc. or we're they designed in house by the manufacture/teams?

MadMatt
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by MadMatt » Wed Feb 25, 2015 5:27 pm

loukayne wrote:Does anyone know if the active differentials from the Gen. 1 and 2 cars were made by Xtrac, Sadev, etc. or we're they designed in house by the manufacture/teams?
Depends on the manufacturer, Ford used to use Xtrac, others I don't know.

MadMatt
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by MadMatt » Fri Feb 27, 2015 9:13 pm

To get back to the topic, what I would like to see:

- Active central diff, but a standard unit (the same for everybody), like with the turbochargers provided by Garrett
- Live telemetry for WRC+ users (if they can do it for F1, why not doing it for WRC at least in the power stage)
- Higher boost pressure to increase torque (2bar absolute would only be +0.5 but would already be nicer)
- Increase rally SS mileage to 400km minimum
- Choose 1 day per rally where there will be an endurance stage of 100km with points attribution the same as with a power stage (3, 2, 1 points for the fastest drivers)

I think individually these changes won't really make a big difference for the public, but allogether they will make the sport more entertaining for the public! :)

loukayne
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by loukayne » Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:32 pm

MadMatt wrote:To get back to the topic, what I would like to see:

- Active central diff, but a standard unit (the same for everybody), like with the turbochargers provided by Garrett
- Live telemetry for WRC+ users (if they can do it for F1, why not doing it for WRC at least in the power stage)
- Higher boost pressure to increase torque (2bar absolute would only be +0.5 but would already be nicer)
- Increase rally SS mileage to 400km minimum
- Choose 1 day per rally where there will be an endurance stage of 100km with points attribution the same as with a power stage (3, 2, 1 points for the fastest drivers)

I think individually these changes won't really make a big difference for the public, but allogether they will make the sport more entertaining for the public! :)
Don't you mean 3bar pressure, because its already at 2.5bar max? Also, is the WRC homologation turbo the Garrett GTR2560R ?

MadMatt
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Re: Next Generation of World Rally Cars

Post by MadMatt » Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:34 am

Yes of course I meant 3bar absolute. Damn Friday haha :)