Moto GP 2016.

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
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Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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FW17 wrote:Honda running their engines in reverse and using a jack shaft for the first time since the 2 stroke days.
Motorsportmagazine quotes this as the main reason for increase in speeds to last year.
Also mentions that other manufacturers are doing the same but does not name them.
Honda has sacrificed power to handling by using reverse engine and jack shaft. So new engine looks like down on power but actually not.
"And this is why all premier-class Grand Prix manufacturers – possibly for the first time in history – now run their engines backwards."

Increase of speeds? What kind of speeds? Bikes are slower than last year in absolute laptime.

Tommy Cookers
617
Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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FW17 wrote:Honda running their engines in reverse and using a jack shaft for the first time since the 2 stroke days. ......
Honda has sacrificed power to handling by using reverse engine and jack shaft. So new engine looks like down on power but actually not.
reverse running can improve cornering ........

there is (angular) momentum stored in the rotation of engine parts, transmission parts, and wheels
more in the engine than in the wheels, especially in the lower gears
overall this stored momentum is the algebraic sum of eg that stored in engine-sense rotation and that stored in wheel-sense rotation
so reversed engine rotation has effects that act against wheel rotation effects

by the conservation of angular momentum two 'gyroscopic' torques arise in cornering .......
as a reaction to the rotating parts being displaced (ie in yaw and in roll) about any axis other than their own axes of rotation
these gyroscopic torques are proportional to the angular velocities of yaw and roll displacements ......
and to the rotating parts angular velocity (equivalent to their rpm) and their polar moments of inertia

entering a corner the machine is rolling fast but yaw is still quite slow .......
the wheels gyroscopic reaction to the roll is a torque tending to yaw them favourably eg the front wheel steers itself in the appropriate direction
reverse engine rotation will give an unfavourable yaw (though this will not directly affect the front wheel)

steady cornering at constant lean (roll having ceased) is all yaw
forward rotating parts give an 'overturning' gyro reaction torque (ie acting against lean) - this demands more lean for a given corner
but reverse rotating parts give a favourable gyro reaction torque (ie acting with lean) - this demands less lean for a given corner
the reverse rotating engine effect will outweigh the forward rotating wheels and such a machine needs less lean for a given corner !!
(significantly less in tighter corners at today's speeds)

the above can be checked using of a bicycle rear wheel
Tony Wilson-Jones of Royal Enfield wrote on steering (forward-rotation) effects in the 1951-2 Proceedings (Auto Div) of the Inst Mech Eng

this effect is far greater in eg 1000cc Moto GP .......
than eg in eg 50cc GPs of the 1960s, such machines being said to need less lean than the large-engined (forward-rotation) machines

(and there was the quite recent case of the front brake discs/rotors that were gear-driven in opposite rotation to the wheel rotation !)

Sevach
1043
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Sevach
1043
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Pedrosa will be riding the factory Yamaha next season.

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Sevach wrote:Pedrosa will be riding the factory Yamaha next season.
Curious, if true..

Why would the Yamaha Factory Team want another 'near his use-by-date' rider?

Unless their remaining No 1 rider was able to stipulate - no new 'young guns' - in his contract..


Anyhow, the past two races have not produced much good racing, more a procession,
punctuated by far too frequent tyre related crashes..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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FW17 wrote:Honda running their engines in reverse and using a jack shaft for the first time since the 2 stroke days.
Motorsportmagazine quotes this as the main reason for increase in speeds to last year.
Also mentions that other manufacturers are doing the same but does not name them.
Honda has sacrificed power to handling by using reverse engine and jack shaft. So new engine looks like down on power but actually not.

The Honda is now def' down on acceleration - compared to the factory opposition - according to MM, who crashed at LM, while
trying hard to make up the deficit under brakes, on an 'unforgiving ' hard compound Michelin front tyre..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

User avatar
turbof1
Moderator
Joined: 19 Jul 2012, 21:36
Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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J.A.W. wrote:
FW17 wrote:Honda running their engines in reverse and using a jack shaft for the first time since the 2 stroke days.
Motorsportmagazine quotes this as the main reason for increase in speeds to last year.
Also mentions that other manufacturers are doing the same but does not name them.
Honda has sacrificed power to handling by using reverse engine and jack shaft. So new engine looks like down on power but actually not.

The Honda is now def' down on acceleration - compared to the factory opposition - according to MM, who crashed at LM, while
trying hard to make up the deficit under brakes, on an 'unforgiving ' hard compound Michelin front tyre..
Yes, indeed. Articles for reference:
http://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/m ... ki-734852/

http://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/a ... gs-734903/

Although I'm not completely sure if it's the michelin front tyre that's the issue for Honda. They only mentioned this:
"The acceleration problems that we are having are worse than last year. You have to keep in mind that the engine is new, and so are the tyres and the electronics," said Pedrosa.
It feels like they haven't grasped the new situation as good as Ducati, Yamaha and Suzuki, who have no issues with the michelin tyre concerning acceleration.

My gut tells me it's a torque problem: they can't seem to get the front tyre planted well enough into the tarmac while accelerating. Ducati does it by huge strakes, and Yamaha and Suzuki seem to have a good weight distribution (I'm guessing here).

Of course it doesn't take away that the michelin front tyre looks to have issues, but I think they manifest more during cornering rather then accelerating.
#AeroFrodo

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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DP was 'bout the only Honda rider not to crash at LM, & was riding within himself..

The Ducati winglets may well provide some meaningful down force at high speed,
but they haven't stopped the front end suddenly slipping out from under them - at slower cornering speeds..

I guess you could get a rough idea of the aero effect by holding your hand out of your car window at speed,
& feeling the pressure differences/apparent weight - at varying angles of attack into the wind..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Sonador
3
Joined: 06 May 2016, 17:26

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Because of Pedrosa's weight, he struggles more than his teammate does.
He cant get the tyres to work properly, becuase he is a featherweight.
When the tracktemp rises his pace improves.

The winglet i believe are mostly there for rider feel/confidence.
I hope they ban them because it makes overtaking more difficult.

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Sonador wrote:Because of Pedrosa's weight, he struggles more than his teammate does.
He cant get the tyres to work properly, becuase he is a featherweight.
When the tracktemp rises his pace improves.

The winglet i believe are mostly there for rider feel/confidence.
I hope they ban them because it makes overtaking more difficult.

Do the aero-strakes really make " overtaking more difficult" ?

Any conclusive evidence to demonstrate this, given the way bikes wobble around - anyhow?
I guess if it can be shown that it is, for sure a real effect/safety issue..

DP expressed concern that the strict tyre pressure reg's were disadvantaging him, at his light weight,
& that he found racing in a' jockeying for position' or 'dicing' situation in mid-pack, after a poor start, not to his liking..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Sonador
3
Joined: 06 May 2016, 17:26

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Turbelent air from following another rider affects the feeling/confidence (this is my opinion) :wink:

Marquez had also something to say about it: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... g--marquez

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Yeah, MM was fairly vague/diplomatic there.. could it be that Honda is it taking it hard this season..
..missing its custom ECU package, & the test input - previously provided by Casey Stoner?

Guess a measure of how they cope - will be how many of the Hondas stay rubber-side-down, & on the pace, at Mugello..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

J.A.W.
109
Joined: 01 Sep 2014, 05:10
Location: Altair IV.

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Sevach wrote:Pedrosa will be riding the factory Yamaha next season.
DP has just re-signed with HRC for a 2 year deal.

Will it be Vinales, or one of the Asparagus bunch - to Yamaha then?

Circus rolls down to Mugello this weekend..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Sevach
1043
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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I screwed up here, but in my defense the Spanish jounalist was reporting it like a done deal, 100% certain.
So i went with him...

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F1NAC
163
Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 22:35

Re: Moto GP 2016.

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Vinales to Yamaha, Iannone to Suzuki

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