Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Marcush
I think that is HWA the company formed after AMG had been sold to Mercedes?

Pandamasque
And I dont think Cosworth had any affilation with the mighty 190E in DTM apart from making the engines for the 2.3 and 2.5 "cossie" Mercs.
Homologated yes but still AMG Mercedes. :D
More could have been done.
David Purley

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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manchild wrote:Current Mercedes engines main parts (from cyl. heads below) are still made in ex Ilmor now officially Mercedes factory in Switzerland by Swiss engineers.
There seem to be a misunderstanding. The Illmore factory was in Brixworth UK and not in Switzerland. It is now MBHPE Ltd. I'm not aware that Illmore also had another factory in Switzerland.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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I pointed that out earlier whiteblue :oops:

Marcush
HWA appears to have had a hand in developing some Mercedes road cars including the SLS AMG. The previous owners of AMG by all accounts.
More could have been done.
David Purley

marcush.
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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HWA ..sorry typo..my bad.

sold out to Daimler but doing their own thing really...on behalf of daimler of course..



the Ilmor 2175a 3.5 l engine was 122kilos race ready ,696hp
the Mercedes M291 last development stage was 680HP flat-12 169 kg with starter, alt, exh, no clutch

I remember the endless stories in german motorsport papers about how ilmor and Daimler were weighing in different ways and the m291 was not really as heavy as it
seemed....

indeed AMG is the company that is developing cars and engines for daimler ,the most prominent one the SLS.
1998 aufrecht sold out to daimler and spun off HWA.

HWA is motorsports mainly as far as I knowdeveloping DTM engines ,F3 engines ,building and developing all DTM activities cars etc also some roadcar development. I´m unclear how much it is in daimler ownership ,but aufrecht remains major stakeholder as far as I know.210 employees.

http://www.hwaag.com/start.html
http://www.mercedes-amg.com/#/about-amg
Last edited by marcush. on Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

autogyro
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Marcush


Spot on :) , from what I have just read. Wikipedia(dont laugh) have it that HWA is a wholly owned subsidiary of Daimler. Aufrecht retains certain rights including company direction, which is joint between Benz and himself.

The difference in weight must have been very surprising to Mercedes engineers.
But in their defence they were not building an engine for an F1 car, it was purely for sports cars. The flat 12 ONLY revs to 12,000 rpm whereas the Ilmor unit had 14,500 i have been told.
Very interesting numbers you posted, where did you get them if I may ask?


Autogyro,
That link indeed vindicates Mercedes HPE being anything other than Mercedes.
Ilmor in Brixworth is and has been consigned to the history books. Its fully fledged Benz.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Pandamasque
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Pandamasque
And I dont think Cosworth had any affilation with the mighty 190E in DTM apart from making the engines for the 2.3 and 2.5 "cossie" Mercs.
AFAIK the 190 race car developed in association with Cosworth was intended for rallying. But the AWD domination in rally made Mercedes change plans and turn that into a road car and a touring car.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Quite possible pandamasque.

However DTM is a very differnt kettle of fish and in the mid and late 80s was probably the fiercest racing series on the planet. Think the titanic battles between BMW and Mercedes and Ludwig and Winkelhock etc.

The spec sheets for these cars read like the inventory list of the space shuttle, very far removed from whatever Cosworth or Mercedes may have initialy had in mind.

I'm also being told on a another F1 thread that a C291 will be in attendance at the Goodwood Festival of Speed....yes please [-o<

I will be the one humping the exhaust :wtf:
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:Marcush


Spot on :) , from what I have just read. Wikipedia(dont laugh) have it that HWA is a wholly owned subsidiary of Daimler. Aufrecht retains certain rights including company direction, which is joint between Benz and himself.

The difference in weight must have been very surprising to Mercedes engineers.
But in their defence they were not building an engine for an F1 car, it was purely for sports cars. The flat 12 ONLY revs to 12,000 rpm whereas the Ilmor unit had 14,500 i have been told.
Very interesting numbers you posted, where did you get them if I may ask?


Autogyro,
That link indeed vindicates Mercedes HPE being anything other than Mercedes.
Ilmor in Brixworth is and has been consigned to the history books. Its fully fledged Benz.


the data is retrieved from personal memory from these years. original source of knowledge were the motorsport papers in germany ,as I mentioned and my friend working at the Stuttgart dynos there and could look up the figures back then.
Obviously we were discussing the subject back then intensely.

twoshots
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Ilmor in Brixworth is and has been consigned to the history books.
Not really. Ilmor Engineering still exists. Until recently they were not very far apart at all: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 08,,0,9.38

Merc have since sold off the buildings on this side of the site and have all there facilities across the other side of a roundabout.

But I'm straying too far off topic...

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Thanks twoshots,

I didnt know they were still based in Brixworth. As Mercedes HPE was a total buyout of Ilmors facilities in Brixworth I assumed they regressed to Northamptonshire.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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Blackout
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Anyone knows how the flat 12 was provided with air ? have you photos of the air intakes ?

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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Blackout wrote:Anyone knows how the flat 12 was provided with air ? have you photos of the air intakes ?
I believe it was fed by pipes, there are no direct ducts to the engine as far as I can see.
More could have been done.
David Purley

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h ... CCoQ9QEwBQ

Actually Im not so sure know... :?

Yet the racing version doesnt have one...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3622/332 ... a7c844.jpg
More could have been done.
David Purley

aral
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Re: Sauber Mercedes-Benz C291

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There is a plenum chamber sitting on top of the engine. This is fed by two tubes, one on each side, fed from the large NACA duct ahead of the rear wheels.