Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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DChemTech
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:32 pm

The rule is written so that they can easily change it as necessary to deal with technology changes. By putting in the "it must be stiff" bit, they can then define stiff as the teams develop their layup technology etc.

It's the same as the law saying "you must not exceed the speed limit" but then allowing, in practice, a tolerance owing to the variability of car speedometers etc. So the speed limit is 60mph but you can "get away with" doing e.g. 63mph because the law recognises the imperfect nature of the measuring devices available to the motorist.

The absolute rule is "do not exceed the speed limit" but the application of it is "speed limit + X" where X is an allowance for the speedometer.

The absolute rule is "components must be totally stiff" but the application is "stiff is defined as having an allowable deflection of X in a specified test".

In neither cases is there a "spirit of the rule". There are just rules. If you meet the rules as defined by the governing entity at the moment then you are ok. There is real world precedent for this in, for example, car fuel economy and emissions rules. The tests were changed to ensure that they represent real world fuel economy and emissions rather than laboratory results. The absolute rule is still the same - the car must meet emissions limits. The application of that is "as defined by a test which we will decide on from time to time".

The idea of the "spirit of the rules" is one of those things that was made up to allow someone to accuse an opponent of cheating but without actually saying it.
There is a big difference though - you can set a speed limit without tolerance. if the speed limit is 60, you can always opt to drive 57 to be certain you meet it.
You cannot do the same for absolute rigidity - if the 'flex limit' is zero, you cannot make a wing that flexes negatively just to be sure. You will need some positive tolerance. And that should be specified beforehand and not changed - because the engineers will design with that tolerance in mind. If it is suddenly changed, you are forcing engineers to abide to rules they could not possible have known, with all due consequences in expenses of time and money. And with the consequence of introducing ambiguity in the championship (because your team may suddenly be impacted by a rule changed without having breached any rule, and other teams may not be as affected), or even worse, punishing most the teams that did the best job of designing within the rules.

By setting an absolute limit which is physically impossible, and setting an arbitrarily changeable tolerance on top of that, the FIA very much introduced the rule that flexibility can only be interpreted in the spirit of "no visible excessive flexing as being a reasonable approximation of absolute stiffness", and they have shown to double down on it by actually using their option to change the tolerance based on qualitative, visual observations of what they would regard excessive flexing (or worse, which one of the teams regarded as excessive flexing, with the opposing party being their main competitor). Such ambiguity is not tolerable in a highly technical championship. Set limits to which the teams engineer at their best capacity, and keep them. And if you don't like the result, ban it for next season - like they did with DAS - or allow it. Or, show that it's actually indisputably illegal and take proper action against the team that violated the rules. I'd rather see a team -even RB- disqualified based on an indisputable rule violation than these arbitrary changes.

peaty
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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People still discussing about the "spirit of the rule" as if it is something in today's F1...they got rid off that years ago! It is not written anywere and it's not applicable. The letter of the rule, that's the thing!

Also you have to love how people are bending backwards trying to "fit" Red Bulls and Mercedes rear wings in the same "box". The reality is that, all the similarities between the two, end with the flexibility.

In the case of the Red Bull, the flexibility and it's effect were well within the rules. On the other hand, IF Mercedes is doing what Red Bull is suggesting (bending the main plane/rotating the main plane/etc), even if it passes all the flexibility test...it's flat out illegal because it leads to a gap bigger than the stipulated ny the rules when the DRS is not active. That is a breach of another article complitelly different to the one regarding flexibilty.

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west52keep64
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:28 pm
But there was an allowance for the whole wing to move
Can you quote the rules that state this?

Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:28 pm
For individual planes there was no allowance, it was expected for them not to be moveable.
Same for this statement please. In which part of the technical regulations are you seeing this? I have not seen anything in the technical regulations that states there was an allowance for movement of the entire rear wing assembly, but no such allowance for a single component of the wing.

Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:28 pm
From jeddah on you have to pass the test.
Where has this been publicised?

e30ernest
e30ernest
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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peaty wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:41 pm
it's flat out illegal because it leads to a gap bigger than the stipulated ny the rules when the DRS is not active. That is a breach of another article complitelly different to the one regarding flexibilty.
I thought there was only a minimum gap limit imposed when the DRS is closed?

Marty_Y
Marty_Y
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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west52keep64 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:31 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:28 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:28 pm
From jeddah on you have to pass the test.
Where has this been publicised?
According to this video from yesterday which I also posted in the W12 thread, the new test doesn't form part of regulatory requirement as it is only being assessed for future use.


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SiLo
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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e30ernest wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:21 am
peaty wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:41 pm
it's flat out illegal because it leads to a gap bigger than the stipulated ny the rules when the DRS is not active. That is a breach of another article complitelly different to the one regarding flexibilty.
I thought there was only a minimum gap limit imposed when the DRS is closed?
10mm closed 85mm open I believe.
Felipe Baby!

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SiLo
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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We really need some high res photos of the rear wing from the front and the back. I want to see if there are score marks at the front, which would indicate they come from Mercedes just changing the angle of the main plane over the course of the season.
Felipe Baby!

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El Scorchio
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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SiLo wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 pm
We really need some high res photos of the rear wing from the front and the back. I want to see if there are score marks at the front, which would indicate they come from Mercedes just changing the angle of the main plane over the course of the season.
We do. I think if Red Bull had any credible evidence that will actually stand up they'd have shared it already. There's absolutely no point in keeping it to themselves at this point in time so close to the end of the season. I think they are trying to bluff Mercedes.

peaty
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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SiLo wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 pm
We really need some high res photos of the rear wing from the front and the back. I want to see if there are score marks at the front, which would indicate they come from Mercedes just changing the angle of the main plane over the course of the season.
Under "normal" running condition I would not expect score marks at all.
If they are changing the main plane angle, I would expect score marks just (or mainly) at the rear.
Score marks on both ends...could be an indication of side to side movement, etc.

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SiLo
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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peaty wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:01 pm
SiLo wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 pm
We really need some high res photos of the rear wing from the front and the back. I want to see if there are score marks at the front, which would indicate they come from Mercedes just changing the angle of the main plane over the course of the season.
Under "normal" running condition I would not expect score marks at all.
If they are changing the main plane angle, I would expect score marks just (or mainly) at the rear.
Score marks on both ends...could be an indication of side to side movement, etc.
I think you've completely misunderstood what I said. I mean that there should be marks at the front side of the main plane (towards the driver) as well which would indicate it just from changing the angle of it along with probably, small vibrations causing friction.
Felipe Baby!

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Stu
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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Next year rear wings will be very interesting, with no end-plates (as they are currently used), any adjustments away from the the ‘normal’ designed AoA will have an effect on flow at the edges of the adjusted part.
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...

PhillipM
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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And they'll also be much easier to make compress and rotate...

peaty
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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SiLo wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:11 pm
peaty wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 8:01 pm
SiLo wrote:
Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:54 pm
We really need some high res photos of the rear wing from the front and the back. I want to see if there are score marks at the front, which would indicate they come from Mercedes just changing the angle of the main plane over the course of the season.
Under "normal" running condition I would not expect score marks at all.
If they are changing the main plane angle, I would expect score marks just (or mainly) at the rear.
Score marks on both ends...could be an indication of side to side movement, etc.
I think you've completely misunderstood what I said. I mean that there should be marks at the front side of the main plane (towards the driver) as well which would indicate it just from changing the angle of it along with probably, small vibrations causing friction.
I think you're the one who missundertood what I said. Think about the flowfield and the interaction with the rear wing and end plates.
There's a significant suction behind the wing which leads to end plates bending/flexing inwards. As a reaction to that, on the other end of the wing (towards the driver as you said) the end plates are trying to bend/flex outwards. In other words, the friction the wing would encounter at the rear end would be greater than at the front. Hence the score marks just or mainly at the rear end.

PhillipM
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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peaty wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:19 pm
I think you're the one who missundertood what I said. Think about the flowfield and the interaction with the rear wing and end plates.
There's a significant suction behind the wing which leads to end plates bending/flexing inwards. As a reaction to that, on the other end of the wing (towards the driver as you said) the end plates are trying to bend/flex outwards. In other words, the friction the wing would encounter at the rear end would be greater than at the front. Hence the score marks just or mainly at the rear end.
The main plane, doesn't touch the endplates. There's a section with 4 winglets between it and the endplates.

peaty
peaty
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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PhillipM wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:25 pm
peaty wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:19 pm
I think you're the one who missundertood what I said. Think about the flowfield and the interaction with the rear wing and end plates.
There's a significant suction behind the wing which leads to end plates bending/flexing inwards. As a reaction to that, on the other end of the wing (towards the driver as you said) the end plates are trying to bend/flex outwards. In other words, the friction the wing would encounter at the rear end would be greater than at the front. Hence the score marks just or mainly at the rear end.
The main plane, doesn't touch the endplates. There's a section with 4 winglets between it and the endplates.
Not sure where did you get that the end plate is touching the main plane directly...certainly not from me...In any case, the separator is bridging the gap between both elements...