2021 Aero Thread

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
jjn9128
244
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by jjn9128 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:25 am

FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:33 am
Any reason why FIA did not introduce the suspension and tyre rule for a year prior (2020) than the aero rules?
I'd guess a mistrust of Pirelli. They're letting them use f2 as a test bed for the 2021 tyres in the hope they can create a half decent product.
#aerogandalf

Koldskaal
6
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 9:02 am

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Koldskaal » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:58 am

Hi everyone. I am reading through the 2021 technical regulations and stubled upon something. On page 118 they seem to leave out the final operation, when defining Floor edge reference volume (RV-FLOOR-EDGE):
Image
With all the other parts they end the section by stating: "The fully defined volume/surface in §final is PART." But this time they seem to, intentionally or not, leave out the final step.
There is a similar error in §14 on page 120. Here they state that the fully defined §14.2 is RS-RBW-APERTURE. it only goes up to §14.1 though.
I figured you guys might be interested. :D
MVRC - Team Koldskaal, name: Christian

jjn9128
244
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by jjn9128 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:00 pm

Koldskaal wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:58 am
Hi everyone. I am reading through the 2021 technical regulations and stubled upon something. On page 118 they seem to leave out the final operation, when defining Floor edge reference volume (RV-FLOOR-EDGE):
https://i.imgur.com/g80DoaK.png
With all the other parts they end the section by stating: "The fully defined volume/surface in §final is PART." But this time they seem to, intentionally or not, leave out the final step.
There is a similar error in §14 on page 120. Here they state that the fully defined §14.2 is RS-RBW-APERTURE. it only goes up to §14.1 though.
I figured you guys might be interested. :D
I didn't have an issue with those parts?

EDIT: I see what you're saying. Is it really an issue that the volume is named than cut again?
#aerogandalf

Oehrly
1
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Oehrly » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:32 pm

I've wondered when reading those regulations, why do they describe everything in words. Putting geometry in words seems like a somewhat bad idea to me. Why does the FIA not create drawings of their reference geometry with minimum/maximum dimensions?
The only drawings I see are Camera Positions and Cockpit Cross Section in the Appendix. That looks rather straight forward and understandable compared to all that gibberish in the rest of the regulations.

jjn9128
244
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by jjn9128 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:20 pm

Oehrly wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:32 pm
I've wondered when reading those regulations, why do they describe everything in words. Putting geometry in words seems like a somewhat bad idea to me. Why does the FIA not create drawings of their reference geometry with minimum/maximum dimensions?
The only drawings I see are Camera Positions and Cockpit Cross Section in the Appendix. That looks rather straight forward and understandable compared to all that gibberish in the rest of the regulations.
From/for 2021 the regulation parts are all available to download from the FIA, for teams. The appendix just describes how to create them which is useful for people like us who want to scrutinize them. It can also be useful for teams to see those sketches the volumes extrude from.

It's a completely new way of writing rules, it used to be that the main body of the regs described the volume and what could be in it, now the regs just say what is in the volumes - and the emphasis is on the plural of that...there are a lot of volumes! Previously there were drawings in the technical appendix, which wasn't released to the public, then from 2017 the drawings started appearing in the actual regs, though there was still more detail in the appendix.
#aerogandalf

Koldskaal
6
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 14, 2019 9:02 am

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Koldskaal » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:00 am

jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:00 pm
Koldskaal wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:58 am
Hi everyone. I am reading through the 2021 technical regulations and stubled upon something. On page 118 they seem to leave out the final operation, when defining Floor edge reference volume (RV-FLOOR-EDGE):
https://i.imgur.com/g80DoaK.png
With all the other parts they end the section by stating: "The fully defined volume/surface in §final is PART." But this time they seem to, intentionally or not, leave out the final step.
There is a similar error in §14 on page 120. Here they state that the fully defined §14.2 is RS-RBW-APERTURE. it only goes up to §14.1 though.
I figured you guys might be interested. :D
I didn't have an issue with those parts?

EDIT: I see what you're saying. Is it really an issue that the volume is named than cut again?
Well, if the volume is explicitly named without the cut, then the cut should be ignored right? So whenever the volume is referenced in the rules, it refers to the volume without the cut. This is a very small thing I know, I suspect it is simply a typo. But in this case, if not fixed, it could give the teams some additional wiggle-room. Though we are only talking a few millimeters.
MVRC - Team Koldskaal, name: Christian

jjn9128
244
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by jjn9128 » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:25 am

Koldskaal wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:00 am
Well, if the volume is explicitly named without the cut, then the cut should be ignored right? So whenever the volume is referenced in the rules, it refers to the volume without the cut. This is a very small thing I know, I suspect it is simply a typo. But in this case, if not fixed, it could give the teams some additional wiggle-room. Though we are only talking a few millimeters.
I believe teams download the parts from the FIA anyway - so they input their wheelbase/AA position and the FIA autocreates the volumes - so they're not free to change them from what the FIA produces. The appendix only describes the operations for production - I think mainly for press.
#aerogandalf

godlameroso
354
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by godlameroso » Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:19 am

In other words the shapes of cars are extremely prescribed, with only detail changes possible? In other words aero developments will still happen, but they'll be more invisible to the average viewer.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

jjn9128
244
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by jjn9128 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:30 pm

The rules are already fairy prescriptive but the cars look more different than they have for a while. We'll have to wait and see what they look like in '21. I think the front end (except nose and wing) will be fairly standard up to the driver. Behind that is about the same freedom as now, except without the winglets around the front of the sidepods.
#aerogandalf

godlameroso
354
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by godlameroso » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:35 pm

jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:30 pm
The rules are already fairy prescriptive but the cars look more different than they have for a while. We'll have to wait and see what they look like in '21. I think the front end (except nose and wing) will be fairly standard up to the driver. Behind that is about the same freedom as now, except without the winglets around the front of the sidepods.
Or bargeboards, or the floor leading edge. No slots along the edge of the floor.

Cars will definitely be slower, but there will be big steps taken throughout the season. My biggest fear are that gaps will increase, and the racing will genuinely be worse than what we have now and next season.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

jjn9128
244
User avatar
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by jjn9128 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:17 pm

There's the "floor edge wing" volume along the edge of the floor, so there is some scope for something there. Gaps always increase in the first year of a major rule change, but I certainly don't expect the wheel-to-wheel to be worse. We've had an okay season this year with a few outstanding races but the majority of races have been the standard fare, or worse.
#aerogandalf

mzso
17
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by mzso » Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:59 pm

FW17 wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:33 am
Any reason why FIA did not introduce the suspension and tyre rule for a year prior (2020) than the aero rules?
So that they can make sure Pirelli will win the tender.