2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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SR71
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by SR71 » Wed May 03, 2017 3:34 pm

I have a feeling 2017 will deliver some passes we remember.

There has already been some chases to remember.

For me, valteri/Vettel/Sochi, was quite enjoyable, a properly earned first win with all the drama of being chased by a 4X wdc.

2017 aero rules played a part in that sequence and NO i don't mean the fact Vettel couldn't pass. I mean the fact that the rules opened up performance for Ferrari to close the gap (and then some).

We for sure have passes to come this season and we won't forget. That's F1.

f1316
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by f1316 » Wed May 03, 2017 4:16 pm

turbof1 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 2:16 pm
CBeck113 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 1:27 pm
But why should passing be easy? The fight makes it interesting, not the pass itself.
I agree, but to have a fight you need to have cars running very close to one another. Something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WufmGOnww8s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WufmGOnww8s

(Actually, these cars had bigger diffusers then they have now. However, the rear wing was also more vertically placed compared to the diffuser and we had a beam wing).

Ultimately, Ben also pointed that it's certainly not all about aerodynamics. Just looking at all fights and overtaking in history, the majority comes from a significant performance deficit between the 2 cars.
This is an example I always use to demonstrate why the overtake itself was not the important part - it was the chase and the battle.

But I still don't think this is evidence of a higher RW + beam wing making it easier to follow - in fact 2005 cars were notoriously difficult in terms of following and overtaking (probably more to do with the front wing coming up).

The reason Schumacher was able to follow Alonso so closely was that there was a massive performance difference that day - most attributable to tyre grip - with Schumacher closing at over 2 seconds per lap (and yet still not able to pass).

I'm sorry to keep on about this but I really don't think history supports your theory.

Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by Andres125sx » Wed May 03, 2017 4:54 pm

shady wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 1:13 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:34 am
SR71 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 6:00 am



Exactly, you can have high DF and good racing.

Newey knows this - so do a few other geniuses on the grid - the rest of us see aero as wing solutions only. Unfortunatlely for F1 the rule makers do as well.

Wing's = 20th century.

One thing is for sure, you CAN have high downforce AND good racing...
Based on what exactly?

Cart can´t be considered a highly developed aero category, and that´s the problem Bhall II conviced me some time ago.

The aero problem comes from the aero development. That myth about ground effects comes from the ground effect era where aero was still on its infancy, but once aero was further developed, everything is studied and optimized, there´s no way to eliminate dirty air and the consequent reduction in downforce, plain and simple. When an aero element is developed to optimize its downforce, any dirty air will reduce its efficiency dramatically, and there´s no way to avoid this

IMO the only way to solve that would be with fan cars, I even opened a thread some time ago where Bhall tried to convice me about that´s not a solution either. He couldn´t tough, I still think a fan car would be the only way to enjoy high DF cars wich are easy to overtake, or at least they´re not severly more difficult to overtake that cars without aero
I have nothing to add, but the dissonance with your two points is hard to reconcile. Im not sure you understand a) dirty air, or b) fans.
What I do understand is a fan can be modified on the go to increase/decrease rpm and consequently DF, so even if in dirty air, it is the only way I can imagine to keep more or less same DF to when in clean air, as increasing fan rpm does not change any other parameter in the car, unlike wings, flaps, diffusers, etc where the whole car is designed to work togheter and any change to compensate the DF reduction (for example an increase in wings AoA) will affect the downstream parts of the car, ergo way more difficult to make anything wich can compensate the reduction in aero.

Also, a fan create its own airflow, so it´s obviously less dependant to clean air than a wing wich cannot compensate any dirty air in any way

What do you exactly don´t understand about this?

shady wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 1:13 pm
Quite literally other teams were complaining about the dirt/rocks/debris being blown into their visors.. This is the antithesis of what you want to achieve.
I find it amazing anytime I mention fan cars someone brings in this argument. Is an air mesh/filter that difficult to use? It shouldn´t, as any ICE use at least one. A fan for this could use a very big filter to avoid getting blocked quickly, but I agree much better tires could/should be used to avoid all those marbles. In Bridgestone era tracks didn´t get that dirty, and with fan cars F1 wouldn´t need any strategy differences to allow some overtakes wich are the main point for current era of weak tires wich can handle a few laps.

Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by Andres125sx » Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 pm

CBeck113 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 1:27 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:34 am
SR71 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 6:00 am



Exactly, you can have high DF and good racing.

Newey knows this - so do a few other geniuses on the grid - the rest of us see aero as wing solutions only. Unfortunatlely for F1 the rule makers do as well.

Wing's = 20th century.

One thing is for sure, you CAN have high downforce AND good racing...
Based on what exactly?

Cart can´t be considered a highly developed aero category, and that´s the problem Bhall II conviced me some time ago.

The aero problem comes from the aero development. That myth about ground effects comes from the ground effect era where aero was still on its infancy, but once aero was further developed, everything is studied and optimized, there´s no way to eliminate dirty air and the consequent reduction in downforce, plain and simple. When an aero element is developed to optimize its downforce, any dirty air will reduce its efficiency dramatically, and there´s no way to avoid this

IMO the only way to solve that would be with fan cars, I even opened a thread some time ago where Bhall tried to convice me about that´s not a solution either. He couldn´t tough, I still think a fan car would be the only way to enjoy high DF cars wich are easy to overtake, or at least they´re not severly more difficult to overtake that cars without aero
But why should passing be easy? The fight makes it interesting, not the pass itself.
Who said it should be easy??? :shock:

If we make a scale from 1 to 10 where 1 is the easiest possible and 10 imposible to overtake, we currently are between 8 and 9. Neither me or any other person I´ve read in this forum have ever asked for overtakes to go to 1, 2 or even 4. But from 3-4 to 8-9 there are several points in between :wink:

I´m not asking for a 2 or 4, but a 6-7 would be great, because currently it´s almost imposible. Currently a 1-1.5 seconds faster car usually can´t overtake. I´m not sure what scaling you are used to see in racing, but to me a 1-1.5 seconds faster car should fly pass the car in front. 1-1.5 seconds are a HUGE difference. F1 used to be measured in tenths, hundreths or even thousanths. Seconds have always been a too big unit, but lately in F1 not even a full second faster car can overtake...

To me trying to solve this problem is SO FAR from asking for easy overtakes wich I can´t barely understand your question. I don´t want easy overtakes, I want overtakes. A competition where a 1.5 seconds faster car can´t overtake to me has no interest at all. Once the last pit-stop is finished you can switch off the TV as you already know the final result.

That´s what happened in Imola 05 and also 06. I couldn´t see the video Turbo, but from the comments I guess that´s what it was about. When I watched that race I was constantly on the edge of my chair. But after the race when the spanish TV asked Alonso about the pressure he replied: Pressure? No way, I knew if I didn´t make a mistake he couldn´t pass me... :wtf: :shock: :o

To me that was enlightening about current F1. If a 2 seconds faster car can´t pass without a mistake from the car in front, what sort of motorsport competition is that? A gimmick IMO. I´m not asking for easy overtakes, I´m asking for overtakes when a car is one full second faster than the car in front, because as I understand racing, when someone (driver/car/team) is so much faster, he deserve at least the chance to try an overtake.

shady
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by shady » Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 pm

Andres, the perspective is not of the car in front but, the one behind. I dont care about the DF the fan generates, or the variability of it, at all. The confusion is with respect to the actual AIR (lower pressure, and much dirtier than from wings) coming from the fan, to replace wings with a fan as to reduce the dirty air, or to compensate for dirtier air is counter intuitive. In addition to the fact that the denser the filter the less effective the fan can be, so its moot on several levels. As a compromise you could probably look for a larger diffuser, or advanced ground effect, with the addition of blowing the exhaust under the floor. The fan is remarkably out of synch with your expectation.. what you want, and how you want it are wholly disparate.

Additionally, your analysis of how hard it should be to overtake, should be at a 9 for F1. Full Stop.

Additionally, your analysis of where we are on that scale is some distance from reality: http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/ I posted this earlier.

Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by Andres125sx » Wed May 03, 2017 5:16 pm

krisfx wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 1:36 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:29 am
wesley123 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 10:23 am


It's good that you use indy as an example of how it should be, considering those cars(together with all of Dallara's current open wheelers) run barn door rear wings.

There is very little evidence confirming that relying on wings for downforce hampers overtaking. Sure, you are being affected by dirty air, but so is your floor, and thus, both will most likely lose similair percentages of downforce.


Really? Based on what?
Vettel got increasingly close and due to DRS did not lose much on the straights. It would very well be plausible that Vettel would have outbraked Bottas into T2, or considering Vettels superior pace in the corners thereafter.
Based on the three previous races. How many overtakes did you see between cars with similar pace this 2017 season?

Drivers struggle to lap cars, so overtaking a car with a similar pace is today more difficult than ever, even when some people do prefer to assume F1 drivers complain without reason :roll: , facts and statements from the principal actors show this season overtaking is more difficult than ever before
An overtake should be like scoring a goal in football (I think Brundle coined that one before me) - It should be difficult and rewarding,
... and doable. Imagine if most football matches finish with draw to 0 :wink:

Andres125sx
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by Andres125sx » Wed May 03, 2017 5:45 pm

shady wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 pm
Additionally, your analysis of how hard it should be to overtake, should be at a 9 for F1. Full Stop.
Ok if you say it sould be 9 then it should be 9 because.... why exactly? Are you the spokesperson of the whole F1 comunity? :roll:

shady wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 pm
Additionally, your analysis of where we are on that scale is some distance from reality: http://cliptheapex.com/overtaking/ I posted this earlier.
Before stating that you should first notice I was talking about 2017, as this thread is about 2017 aero rules, wich are exactly what I was talking about

How many overtakes did you see this first three races of 2017? Did you see 49 overtakes per GP? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Anycase, that ovetaking count has been masked with DRS. If you´re asking for battles, fights, more that overtakes itself, then you should be against DRS, as it has actually ruined most battles. It would be nosense to risk a battle when you can pass easily at the straight. Not applicable this season tough as not even with DRS they can pass the car in front
shady wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 pm
The confusion is with respect to the actual AIR (lower pressure, and much dirtier than from wings) coming from the fan, to replace wings with a fan as to reduce the dirty air, or to compensate for dirtier air is counter intuitive.
Any reason that air coming from the fan can´t be canalized to put the fan exhaust for example at the anti-roll hoop facing upwards so it does not affect the car behind directly?
shady wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 pm
In addition to the fact that the denser the filter the less effective the fan can be...
What is far from a problem as a fan can create DF at will, so a reduced efficiency would be easily compensated with an increase in rpm


I know this would require a dramatic change, probably most people reading this think about current cars with a fan like those used in the 70´s, but that´s not what I´m thinking about, but a evolution from that with smaller fans only working when in dirty air (so the filter is not blocked so easily as it will only work at some parts of the race) to compensate the DF reduction, with filter, a vertical exhaust, and a FIA ECU controlling fan rpm to be sure it only compensate dirty air but does not increase car perfomance.


To me 2017 aero rules have been a disaster, cars are not that much faster and overtaking is more difficult than ever. I like the cars much more tough, that´s the only positive to me

shady
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by shady » Wed May 03, 2017 6:16 pm

Because as the pinnacle of motorsport overtaking shouldnt be easy, it is a showcase of talent and engineering, anything less devalues the spectacle.

As for 2017 I said that DRS is right where it should be, allowing you to get close without being so overpowered to let you blow by your competitor. It has been nerfed to exactly where it should be.

Ill no longer address the fan, as I have presented rationalization as to why it is both illegal and illogical.

f1316
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by f1316 » Wed May 03, 2017 6:26 pm

Given the fan car idea is being discussed, how about another blast from the past: six wheelers.

The reason I say that is based on two assumptions: I. The way cars generate downforce from very complex wings makes the 'dirty' air more disruptive than if wings were simple II. If we just simplified the wings through regulation, the cars would be too slow in the corners.

So that leads to the 'speed through corners via tyre grip rather than downforce' argument - hence wider tyres. But there's a limit to the width tyres can go and how soft/grippy they can be made (by Pirelli at least) whilst still allowing drivers to push (and hence go fast).

So one answer would be to put more wheels on the car - increasing the contact patch whilst not concomitantly increasing drag - and have simpler wings (like the Indy car I've just been watching Fernando driving).

wesley123
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by wesley123 » Wed May 03, 2017 6:42 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:29 am
wesley123 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 10:23 am
cplchanb wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 4:24 pm
not quite true. The biggest reason for the inability to keep up close is the because of the reliance on the wings for downforce. Indy next year will have new cars that rely more on the floor for grip. If F1 relies more on the floor and mech grip they can have both
It's good that you use indy as an example of how it should be, considering those cars(together with all of Dallara's current open wheelers) run barn door rear wings.

There is very little evidence confirming that relying on wings for downforce hampers overtaking. Sure, you are being affected by dirty air, but so is your floor, and thus, both will most likely lose similair percentages of downforce.

Really? Based on what?
Vettel got increasingly close and due to DRS did not lose much on the straights. It would very well be plausible that Vettel would have outbraked Bottas into T2, or considering Vettels superior pace in the corners thereafter.
Based on the three previous races. How many overtakes did you see between cars with similar pace this 2017 season?

Drivers struggle to lap cars, so overtaking a car with a similar pace is today more difficult than ever, even when some people do prefer to assume F1 drivers complain without reason :roll: , facts and statements from the principal actors show this season overtaking is more difficult than ever before
I really don't care how much forced overtaking there is or isn't, if you want to see overtaking go to your local highway. I want to see racing, not some event where drivers are forced to overtake each other, acting like that is the sole thing that has ever counted when racing.

I suppose it sounds weird, but I enjoyed the tactics that played a role in the first 4 races. I enjoyed Hamilton hunting down Vettel in Bahrain and I enjoyed Vettels ultra late pit stop and him hunting down Bottas past weekend.

Sure, overtaking might be harder, big deal.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

CBeck113
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by CBeck113 » Wed May 03, 2017 8:29 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 5:12 pm
CBeck113 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 1:27 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:34 am


I still think a fan car would be the only way to enjoy high DF cars wich are easy to overtake, or at least they´re not severly more difficult to overtake that cars without aero
But why should passing be easy? The fight makes it interesting, not the pass itself.
Who said it should be easy???
Ummm...you?
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George-Jung
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by George-Jung » Wed May 03, 2017 8:54 pm

Overtaking should only be difficult because they guy in front defends his position realy well, not because it is utterly difficult to follow the car in front..

SR71
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by SR71 » Wed May 03, 2017 11:01 pm

Does everyone really believe that had Sochi been another 5 laps Vettel wouldn't have made an overpass attempt or 2 because the air was too dirty?

Would he have made the pass work? Who knows, but FOR SURE he would have made an attempt once he and Valteri cleared traffic.

Attempts cannot be made if you cannot close the gap, clearly the gap is able to be closed AND that's with two cars that most would say are fairly even in performance.

I declare the rules a success, we have F1 back (factoring in tires that can be pushed in dirty air).

djos
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by djos » Wed May 03, 2017 11:39 pm

Andreas, you accuse the champ cars of being simple in aero, outwardly that is true however you ignored the picture I posted of the 2000 era Lola under-wing, they are anything but simple and are orders of magnitude more advanced than anything ever seen in F1 or even allowed in Le mans prototypes.

They didn't need much in the way of external wings as they relied on the bulk of their down force being generated by the underwing, even more so when they ran on ovals where the external wings became trim devices only.

Here is a great 3 way battle from 1998 at longbeach, it was epic and we never see front row F1 cars able to race this close and hard because they are too reliant on external wings. These sort of close ChampCar battles were not uncommon in the 90's and very early 2000's.

https://youtu.be/tLo0yYRXUfE
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wesley123
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Re: 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

Post by wesley123 » Thu May 04, 2017 8:06 am

SR71 wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 11:01 pm
Does everyone really believe that had Sochi been another 5 laps Vettel wouldn't have made an overpass attempt or 2 because the air was too dirty?

Would he have made the pass work? Who knows, but FOR SURE he would have made an attempt once he and Valteri cleared traffic.
Valtteri got lucky with the traffic, Vettel lost just enough time to make it another lap.
djos wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 11:39 pm
Andreas, you accuse the champ cars of being simple in aero, outwardly that is true however you ignored the picture I posted of the 2000 era Lola under-wing, they are anything but simple and are orders of magnitude more advanced than anything ever seen in F1 or even allowed in Le mans prototypes.
The champ car floors were advanced, yes. But certainly not more advanced than F1 floors.
They didn't need much in the way of external wings as they relied on the bulk of their down force being generated by the underwing, even more so when they ran on ovals where the external wings became trim devices only.
So did F1, except those rules had to be changed because there wasn't enough overtaking. But Champ cars too required big wings.
Here is a great 3 way battle from 1998 at longbeach, it was epic and we never see front row F1 cars able to race this close and hard because they are too reliant on external wings. These sort of close ChampCar battles were not uncommon in the 90's and very early 2000's.
I believe it was Monaco 2011 where the first three were very close to each other near the end of the race.

Also Valtteri's restart at Bahrain was pretty agressive and Bottas and Vettel got very, very close.

Oh, and there isn't any evidence that confirms that underbody's are less sensitive to dirty air than wings are, that's just an assumption made out of literally nowhere.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender