Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

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jjn9128
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by jjn9128 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:47 pm

toraabe wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:10 pm
Ross Brawn knows everything about groundeffect. http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/car/4484 ... JR-14.html
Not sure if I should respond or not but here goes.

My supervisor was lead aerodynamicist at Jag, Nissan and Toyota in the Group-C days, he knows about ground effect as well. My other supervisor worked on the venturi tunnel Champ cars, and knows about ground effect too. I doubt Mr Brawn would agree he knows everything but he certainly worked on some successful big diffuser/venturi tunnel/skirted cars and I've not read anything from him asserting that more 'ground effect' is what is required to improve racing and a quick google isn't throwing anything up. So what's your point?

Just_a_fan
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:24 pm

He is a one track record. Anytime a question about overtaking or downforce is raised, he just spouts that F1 needs tunnels. Actually, he just says "F1 needs to go back to ground effect" or words to that effect. There are no technical discussions, just the assertion that "ground effect" is the be-all and end-all.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

jjn9128
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by jjn9128 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:57 pm

Fair enough.

SR71
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by SR71 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:45 pm


toraabe
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by toraabe » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:00 pm

Just repeating myself. I don't thing the americans are stupid either ..

http://www.indycar.com/News/2017/03/03- ... ign-update

http://digbza2f4g9qo.cloudfront.net/~/m ... rlay-HIRES

Just_a_fan
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:29 pm

Indycar is effectively a one-make series with an engine choice. The cars will all run the same chassis and aero package which has been designed for their particular set of needs. F1 could do that but then it wouldn't be F1, it would be just be an FIA one-make series.

The thing about overtaking is that more is not necessarily better. We have lots of DRS overtakes these days but everyone finds that boring. The interesting overtakes are the ones that the driver sets up, often several corners before the actual move. It's the whole "will he, won't he" build up and then the attempt, successful or otherwise, that makes it enjoyable.

If you want a one-make series, go watch Indycar and leave F1 to those who prefer the long game to the quick fix.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools."

jjn9128
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by jjn9128 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:40 pm

SR71 wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:45 pm
Just gonna leave this here...

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/06/09/n ... -f1-brawn/
It's good they're doing research on it again. The current rules felt like they were a compromise to fix a problem which didn't exist. I'm not sure how hands on Brawn will be as he's hired Jason Somerville (ex-Williams) to head the project. Disappointed they've not contacted me about it :lol:

jjn9128
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by jjn9128 » Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:44 pm

toraabe wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:00 pm
Just repeating myself. I don't thing the americans are stupid either ..

http://www.indycar.com/News/2017/03/03- ... ign-update

http://digbza2f4g9qo.cloudfront.net/~/m ... rlay-HIRES
I don't want to be argumentative but what you've done is post an image of the oval configuration. The road course car will have big 3-element front and rear wings https://www.motorsport.com/indycar/phot ... 895708&i=9 Kinda like the current DW12. All that car is at the moment is a render generated by a 3-d animator, in reality the car will look very different when Dallara's aerodynaicists get to work.

toraabe
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by toraabe » Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:38 am

In the article it is written

"
A key component of the new car is for it to generate most of its downforce from underneath instead of on top. This will improve racing and passing opportunities by decreasing the turbulent air that the Indy car leaves in its wake.

"

Vyssion
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by Vyssion » Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:56 am

toraabe wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 7:38 am
In the article it is written

"
A key component of the new car is for it to generate most of its downforce from underneath instead of on top. This will improve racing and passing opportunities by decreasing the turbulent air that the Indy car leaves in its wake.

"
It is "written" in the article, yes... But you will notice that it is not contained within quotation marks - because that is the journalist's opinion of what was said. Media spout buzz words and twist technical statements toget more views from the regular Joe Bloke on the street: to the point that most of what they say is a lie (at least from my experience in the industry).
Oval tracks, eh... maybe they will generate most downforce from the underbody though "most" is technically true if the figure is 50.01% :lol:

jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:15 am
I'm not sure how I feel about spec components, as they suggest for an FIA developed undertray.
I am EXTREMELY against this... it will make the cars look the same, behave the same, and not promote development. There is a problem with V8 Supercars in Australia at the moment where pretty much EVERYTHING is controlled (aero kit, engine CC, suspension, etc.) to the point where you literally can't tell the Mercedes and Holden from the Ford or Nissan without hoping to catch the insignia badge on the front. I really hope this is never done.
If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough.
The great thing about facts is that they are true, whether or not you believe them. - Neil deGrasse Tyson
Vyssion Scribd - Aerodynamics Papers
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jjn9128
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by jjn9128 » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:34 am

Vyssion wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:56 am
Oval tracks, eh... maybe they will generate most downforce from the underbody though "most" is technically true if the figure is 50.01%
Ah you beat me to it. If 'most' is all he wants, F1 cars generate 55-60% of their downforce through the underbody, plus the 25-30% from the front wing is 80-90% of the downforce from the 'lower surfaces'. Indycars on ovals will generate a larger portion of downforce from the floor, maybe as high as 90% but total downforce is reduced by upwards of 2/3 from a road course configuration.
Vyssion wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:56 am
I am EXTREMELY against this... it will make the cars look the same, behave the same, and not promote development. There is a problem with V8 Supercars in Australia at the moment where pretty much EVERYTHING is controlled (aero kit, engine CC, suspension, etc.) to the point where you literally can't tell the Mercedes and Holden from the Ford or Nissan without hoping to catch the insignia badge on the front. I really hope this is never done.
Yeah this is part of the trouble I have with it but it was always said in the past if you stripped the paint off the F1 cars even the team bosses wouldn't be able to tell them apart. Maybe this year that is different as a fair few of the cars are quite distinctive - people here will be more detail oriented so would probably distinguish more differences than most F1 fans.

On the other hand DTM have a lot of spec parts and they look different. The LMP rules almost entirely define the floor and they have looked different in the past (this year the Porsche and Toyota less so). But when there are only 2 cars per team does that matter - the paint job differentiates the constructors. I have trouble working out who's who in Indycar as the paint jobs seem to change race-to-race but that's a whole other issue.

jjn9128
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by jjn9128 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:50 pm

So I broke my good laptop a few weeks back so I haven't been able to do any CFD for a while. Since the halo was confirmed in the gap I thought I'd see how it looks on my concept - obviously it's not properly integrated into the design and there's no aerodynamic fairing.

The dimensions are roughly approximated from images of cars fitted with the test halo and that CAD image in the FIA halo presentation. From certain angles I think it looks quite cool, the front 3/4 and side-on views, but then again it's not being made compulsory for it's looks.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:01 am

jjn9128 wrote:
Sat May 13, 2017 2:03 pm
So I recently finished a Ph.D.
Great post. =D> I know ALOT of work you really had to put in to come to these many conclusions. Interesting recommendations. Very comprehensive too. I have a question though. Would your design be slower than the current cars or will the active suspension and aero make up for it?

I have done some studies on not only the increase in downforce under the car (less reliance on Y250 and other "tricks") but also the addition of energy to the wake using a fan... I think this is the future. I presented it here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22583

Image
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jjn9128
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by jjn9128 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:14 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:01 am
Great post. =D> I know ALOT of work you really had to put in to come to these many conclusions. Interesting recommendations. Very comprehensive too. I have a question though. Would your design be slower than the current cars or will the active suspension and aero make up for it?

I have done some studies on not only the increase in downforce under the car (less reliance on Y250 and other "tricks") but also the addition of energy to the wake using a fan... I think this is the future. I presented it here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22583

http://i.imgur.com/cuNQ7y0.jpg
Different elements of the concept would reduce or increase the lap-time, doing a very basic analysis with assumed constants around the lap I get a small improvement of 0.2-0.3s. Power is reduced in line with drag to maintain a similar Vmax and power-to-weight (~1350bhp/tonne). Reducing the mass should have the biggest impact on lap-time.

Variable | 2017 | Target | delta | delta time
Downforce | -5.1 | -4.0 | -22% | +1.8s
Drag | 1.3 | 1.0 | -22% | -1.5s
Power | 745kW | 600kW | -19% | +2.6s
Mass | 728kg | 605kg | -17% | -3.2s

The drag target is with the aero trimmed on straights so drag will be higher in corners, though the active suspension helps in corners because downforce and balance are consistent through braking, cornering and then acceleration. It would be better to put the numbers into a lap simulation for various circuits and get an actual delta to a 2017 car, but I don't have all the relevant data or a lap simulator.

I'm personally not a fan of fans *badum tsh* primarily because of the risk of debris, not just for other drivers (I think helmets and visors are better now then when Helmut Marco lost sight in his eye) but for marshals and spectators. Any mesh or gauze put over the exit to catch debris will just make the system less efficient. I can also imagine over a race distance it would also become clogged with rubber and stones. I don't know how the fan would cope with low velocity and pressure from the wake of an upstream car, would it not need to increase power to create the same pressure under the car?

One advantage I can think of is as a means of equalizing downforce. If the FIA measures static pressure under the car then adjusts the fans power team-by-team.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Concept for regulations to improve overtaking

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:59 pm

OK I wont go off topic for too long. What is interesting with the fan is that it won't shoot out stones as much as we think. Mainly because it is only providing a moderate velocity increase to bring the velocity under the car in-line to what it would be in clean air. So not as dramatic as the Brabham fan car.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"