2018-2020 Tyres Thread

[izzy]

This is what some teams are hoping for!

yes they are dreaming tho. even if they get the vote it only means Pirelli would be allowed to, if they wanted. And they don't want, sorry Helmut, Christian, Mattia and especially you Günther, you're gonna have to do it with downforce

[dans79]

This is what some teams are hoping for!

yes they are dreaming tho. even if they get the vote it only means Pirelli would be allowed to, if they wanted. And they don't want, sorry Helmut, Christian, Mattia and especially you Günther, you're gonna have to do it with downforce

What I don't get, is why so many of the teams are having "issues". They had 2 full days of tire testing in Abu Dhabi in representative weather conditions. That should have been more than enough data for them to tune their models and simulations.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... 0iIS4.html

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... KOY2O.html

[izzy]

What I don't get, is why so many of the teams are having "issues". They had 2 full days of tire testing in Abu Dhabi in representative weather conditions. That should have been more than enough data for them to tune their models and simulations.

yes it's weird isn't it? Apparently Mercedes ran some extra sensors in the Abu race and that meant they were allowed to run them in the tests, when the other teams weren't. And Mercedes were so late with their car weren't they, like they found out late that they needed that downforce more than they needed outwash. Plus there's the magic vortexing wheels as we discussed

Meanwhile the teams had to look two ways didn't they, and all the talk was about the lost outwash and what were they gonna do , so it was a bit of a balancing act and it's not just the 0.4mm it's new constructions as well, that need more load to work

But perhaps it's like with the PU, where only Mercedes thought clearly about it and realised a BIG fat turbo was what was needed, and now again they're the only ones who thought clearly about what that tyre data meant

[ENGINE TUNER]

Plus there's the magic vortexing wheels as we discussed

and it's not just the 0.4mm it's new constructions as well, that need more load to work

Care to point me in the direction of that discussion please.

What new construction? What has changed about the construction other than the thinner tread depth?

[LM10]

It was not just Haas having problems in France. To name other visible examples, RBR obviously had tyre issues as they were sliding all over the place and Ferrari, yet again, weren't able to heat up the tyres even though track temperatures were at over 50°C at times.

I did not see any mention of this in the post race interviews. VET was able to easily pass the McLarens and was closing the gap to VER the whole race. VER pushed hard most of the race, no mention of sliding, graining or tire conservation from him in his post race interview.GAS and RIC started on the reds.

How does the fact that Vettel could overtake the McLarens and close the gap to Verstappen show that Ferrari had no issues heating the tyres up? I think the best indication was that Vettel could not warm up the tyres at the end, thus beat Ham’s fastest time on used hards only by thousands of a second.

[LM10]

This is what some teams are hoping for!

yes they are dreaming tho. even if they get the vote it only means Pirelli would be allowed to, if they wanted. And they don't want, sorry Helmut, Christian, Mattia and especially you Günther, you're gonna have to do it with downforce

So you’re implying that McLaren has the most downforce in the field after Mercedes?

[dans79]

This is what some teams are hoping for!

yes they are dreaming tho. even if they get the vote it only means Pirelli would be allowed to, if they wanted. And they don't want, sorry Helmut, Christian, Mattia and especially you Günther, you're gonna have to do it with downforce

So you’re implying that McLaren has the most downforce in the field after Mercedes?

it's not the simple! Downforce is only part of the equation, suspension set-up is also plays a big part. A more rigged suspension will also work the tires harder, and that's something Mercedes has been known for. Mainly because their aero philosophy (low rake for example) requires it.

[strad]

A more rigged suspension will also work the tires harder, and that's something Mercedes has been known for.

Dan could you please explain what you mean by a more "rigged" suspension?
I thought maybe you meant to say a more rigid suspension.
A stiffer suspension perhaps?

[dans79]

I thought maybe you meant to say a more rigid suspension.
A stiffer suspension perhaps?

Yea, that's what I meant to say, side effects of typing on a phone while sitting in traffic I guess.

If memory serves McLaren used to run a fairly stiff suspension around 2010-2012. I have vague memories of the car shuddering under hard braking be cause the suspension was so stiff. I'm not sure what philosophy they've been following recently.

[Singabule]

I thought maybe you meant to say a more rigid suspension.
A stiffer suspension perhaps?

Yea, that's what I meant to say, side effects of typing on a phone while sitting in traffic I guess.

If memory serves McLaren used to run a fairly stiff suspension around 2010-2012. I have vague memories of the car shuddering under hard braking be cause the suspension was so stiff. I'm not sure what philosophy they've been following recently.

Is it Merc car a squat happy one? Their suspension is softer as this is allowed by low rake concept. RB in other case need stiffer one as if they use softer suspension the tea tray area would hit asphalt every bump. Ferarri opt for lower drag with outwash wing, same as STR. Interestingly MCL is a unique case. Or maybe stiff front and soft rear for RB case, hence their rear is so slippery as they cant generate heat to the rear? Its confusing and there is no easy answer.

[gshevlin]

The current distress within the teams over the narrow optimum working range of the tyres is caused by a bunch of issues:
1. No competition for Pirelli. They do not have any rival tyre manufacturer competing with them and potentially beating them, so the changes they are making to the tyres are at the behest of LibertyF1 and the FIA only.
2. Lack of advance testing using up to date cars. Whenever there is a tyre test, all teams have to be present, otherwise the other teams complain about unfair learning advantages. There have been arguments over the use of older cars in testing due to team paranoia about leakage of aero and chassis secrets and one team being advantaged.
3. The cars are HEAVY.
4. escalating levels of downforce that are putting more and more load through the tyres.

The tyres being built today are way different to those of the "lightweight" F1 era of the 1980s when the weight limit was 540kg. The cars are 30% heavier with more downforce.
The current push by many teams to revert to older-specification tyres reflects the general static nature of F1 competition, with 3 tier 1 teams and 7 tier 2 teams, and nobody changing tiers (although Red Bull is in Tier 1.5 and Williams is sort of Tier 3). The Tier 2 teams are looking for a "wild card", Red Bull is looking for help, Ferrari is looking for help, and Mercedes doesn't want to change since they are looking to buy more silverware cabinets.

[izzy]

Care to point me in the direction of that discussion please.

What new construction? What has changed about the construction other than the thinner tread depth?

it's easier to post the pic again:

see the little holes jetting into the inner teardrop holes in the spokes? And how the famous spacer isn't anything to do with that it just vents immediately to its outside. Plus we discussed how on the tyre side the rim is as smooth as a baby's bottom when if they'd wanted it to transfer heat they'd've at least roughed it up a bit

Christian and a few other people have mentioned the stiffer construction, like “Obviously there’s 25% less rubber on these tyres and they’re stiffer."

[izzy]

So you’re implying that McLaren has the most downforce in the field after Mercedes?

No, lol, there are lots of possible reasons. They might have more than Renault, or they might be planning more, or they don't want blisters and they don't have any particular agenda about Mercedes, or they're getting the tyres more in the window with as @dans79 says their suspension or they're part way through next year's car and have been doing it to suit the current tyres

[LM10]

So you’re implying that McLaren has the most downforce in the field after Mercedes?

No, lol, there are lots of possible reasons. They might have more than Renault, or they might be planning more, or they don't want blisters and they don't have any particular agenda about Mercedes, or they're getting the tyres more in the window with as @dans79 says their suspension or they're part way through next year's car and have been doing it to suit the current tyres

Then why this sentence from you: “And they don't want, sorry Helmut, Christian, Mattia and especially you Günther, you're gonna have to do it with downforce”?

[ENGINE TUNER]

Christian and a few other people have mentioned the stiffer construction, like “Obviously there’s 25% less rubber on these tyres and they’re stiffer."

Thanks for the pic. Any word from pirelli about then changing the construction? Sorry, I don't trust a word out of Horner's mouth.