2018 whopping car weight

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digitalrurouni
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by digitalrurouni » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:12 pm

drivinhard wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:22 am
Lap times SHOULD be quicker than ever, it's 13 years after the V10 cars and they are running huge rubber and 13 years newer aero development. They are actually slower (typically) during a race lap due vs the V10 era to the absurd competition weights.

Here's a devil's advocate formula. What if you took the 2004/2005 rulebook +/-, and gave them the same fuel flow limit as the hybrids, and gave them current tire size. Engine and comp weight was open with only the fuel flow limit in place. I bet they could run the same or quicker lap times in sub 600 kg cars with 1/100th the complexity of the modern PU.
That appeals to me in some ways, however I don't think I want to go back to the sounds of the previous cars anymore. I personally am not minding the sound these PUs are making. I also like these hybrid motors and their complexities! I say allow for more exotic materials to allow the manufacturers to make lighter cars.

gdogg371
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by gdogg371 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:20 pm

1200-1400 bhp wouldn't be an unreasonable amount of power in these cars. The power to weight ratio would still be less than a 505kg 1994 Ferrari V12 with just short of 800bhp...

Moctecus
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by Moctecus » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:03 pm

Before 1995 the minimum weight did not include the driver. Gerhard Berger weighed 74kg and Jean Alesi 72kg in 1994 so that's 579kg and 577kg total weight.

roon
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by roon » Fri Nov 03, 2017 7:58 pm

Where do lap records stand now that this season is nearing conclusion? Did the lower & wider cars prove to be quicker?

Ultimately faster lap times, year to year, aren't really a big concern for the sport. Have they ever been? The championship winner only cares if they are faster than the other teams. There are limits in terms of what the tracks can safely accommodate, and what the cars can withstand during a crash. Also, I doubt there's much interest within the sport to develop G-suits for use in land vehicles.

This would all be the purview of a new series.

wuzak
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by wuzak » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:13 am

GPR-A wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:33 am
hollus wrote:
Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:18 am
And 4th and 5th and 6th suspension elements, transformer-like body-work, money seat, batwing, batfunnel, internal aero work, brake ducts, variable this, variable that... if affects all teams, actually.

The regs force them to a minimum weight and a certain weight distribution... it follows that there is more to gain by having advanced systems and extra bodywork than by lowering the center of gravity by 0.01mm. So they all add hardware until they are just at the minimum weight.

It is a vicious circle, because the team that has 400 million less to spend won't be able to fit the last piece of hot hardware while staying under the minimum weight, so they fit it anyways, complain, and the minimum weight raises... cue the top teams adding yet another suspension element with yet another hydraulic line and yet another 20 sensors for the extra allowed weight...

They could slash the minumum weight to 700kg right now, halo included, and the only consequence would be that all cars would have to become 50 cm shorter and 1 second faster (due to the reduced weight). But politics...
Not a photoshop expert, but this is a layman crunch of the W08 I could do. Why do they increased the length and width or the car? That in turn increased the weight. With 2021 engine rules having been revamped, can they not revisit the rules for the size of the car? That would save hell of a lot of the weight and make the cars faster.

Click to enlarge.
https://s1.postimg.org/5iohet1ib3/f12.png
The W08 is "over 5.7m long".

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13283 ... w08-f1-car

godlameroso
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by godlameroso » Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:04 pm

drivinhard wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:22 am
Lap times SHOULD be quicker than ever, it's 13 years after the V10 cars and they are running huge rubber and 13 years newer aero development. They are actually slower (typically) during a race lap due vs the V10 era to the absurd competition weights.

Here's a devil's advocate formula. What if you took the 2004/2005 rulebook +/-, and gave them the same fuel flow limit as the hybrids, and gave them current tire size. Engine and comp weight was open with only the fuel flow limit in place. I bet they could run the same or quicker lap times in sub 600 kg cars with 1/100th the complexity of the modern PU.
Not possible without forced induction.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

michl420
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by michl420 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:36 pm

I am reading the new regulations now and I must say it is no surprise the cars are heavyer every year, because with that much minimum weights (ES, mgu-k, mgu-h, control units, power unit, maybe tires, and what ever) it is difficult to find somthing that can be make lighter. And the mandatory weight distribution is still silly!

Maritimer
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by Maritimer » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:51 pm

drivinhard wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:22 am
Lap times SHOULD be quicker than ever, it's 13 years after the V10 cars and they are running huge rubber and 13 years newer aero development. They are actually slower (typically) during a race lap due vs the V10 era to the absurd competition weights.
The biggest reason the V10 cars lapped faster during races was because of refueling, the current cars are faster in qualifying at just about every track when they have reduced fuel loads.

godlameroso
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:27 pm

Speaking of car weight, how much is the halo going to affect chassis performance, and aero downstream? I think people underestimate this, and fine tuning the aero of the halo will be important because the airflow coming off it will likely interact with the rear wing. As usual the more well funded teams will benefit as they'll be able to redesign the halo and streamline it into the chassis as the season progresses, no doubt shaving weight, and improving the aero. The mass of the halo raises the CoG of the car some as well, which can be improved through development.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

PhillipM
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by PhillipM » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:48 pm

Quite a lot, both interaction with the sidepod shoulders and the air intake, more than one person has told me that Mclaren's solution to that at the minute looks like Gillette should have sponsored it.

hollus
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by hollus » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:41 pm

So, FIA just increased the minimum weight by 6 Kg to allow for the Halo.
The result is in the 2018 car comparison thread:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27033
All cars became longer to converge with the already long Mercedes (yes, including Sauber). Clearly, they really needed those 6 Kgs... #-o
We have had weight increases to allow for KERS, to allow for wider cars, to allow for wider tires, to allow for Hans IIRC, to allow for "tall" drivers, to allow for the turbo and the batteries... at the same time, the cars became longer, the aero appendages more complicated, the suspensions more and more sophisticated, all sort of air conducts appeared here and there...

Dear FIA,
F1 is an aero dominated formula. The best aero normally wins. Hence, any liberty in car design allowed to the teams, will be traded for aero performance (or suspension performance). It would also be traded for power, but the powertrain already has a generous minimum weight.
And then someone complains that they are at the weight limit...

Simply, right now, cut car weight by 50 Kg. It is a figure change in the regulations. A single figure. Done! If that happens, next year all teams would show up with cars about 50 cm shorter, which would be choppier but actually faster cars. Everybody happy.

Why is this so difficult to understand?
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. TANSTAAFL!

jjn9128
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by jjn9128 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:55 pm

hollus wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:41 pm
So, FIA just increased the minimum weight by 6 Kg to allow for the Halo.
The result is in the 2018 car comparison thread:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=27033
All cars became longer to converge with the already long Mercedes (yes, including Sauber). Clearly, they really needed those 6 Kgs... #-o
We have had weight increases to allow for KERS, to allow for wider cars, to allow for wider tires, to allow for Hans IIRC, to allow for "tall" drivers, to allow for the turbo and the batteries... at the same time, the cars became longer, the aero appendages more complicated, the suspensions more and more sophisticated, all sort of air conducts appeared here and there...

Dear FIA,
F1 is an aero dominated formula. The best aero normally wins. Hence, any liberty in car design allowed to the teams, will be traded for aero performance (or suspension performance). It would also be traded for power, but the powertrain already has a generous minimum weight.
And then someone complains that they are at the weight limit...

Simply, right now, cut car weight by 50 Kg. It is a figure change in the regulations. A single figure. Done! If that happens, next year all teams would show up with cars about 50 cm shorter, which would be choppier but actually faster cars. Everybody happy.

Why is this so difficult to understand?
Why? Are the cars not fast enough? Weight increases primarily for added safety features and longevity of components, but it's not the only performance differentiator. Since the start of the hybrid era 44kg has been added to the minimum weight, but the cars are 6 seconds quicker in qualifying trim, 4/5seconds quicker in the race.

This is lap data for Barcelona since the chicane was added. The fastest qualifying time last year was quicker than in 2010, when the cars were 114kg lighter, average race laps within 1/4second. From testing a 1m17-18s should be possible in this years qualifying, a gain of ~1.5-2seconds despite the 6kg increase.

Image

dave kumar
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by dave kumar » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:50 am

Just to put this in context, here's a quote from Paddy Lowe as reported in racefans.net (formerly f1fanatic)
https://www.racefans.net/2018/03/01/hea ... ules-lowe/
"One particular point, if I was to pick one thing, is the weight of the cars has increased dramatically over the last 10 years. Formula One is a sprint formula, these are cars that are supposed to be incredibly quick for one lap qualifying and then race in an hour-and-a-half, 300 kilometre race, it’s relatively short. They’re not endurance cars and yet the weight has been increasing to levels that are getting towards an endurance formula rather than a sprint formula. So I think that’s something that needs to be looked at."

"The lap times are very strong at the moment because we have a lot of power and we have a huge amount of downforce, higher than ever in history. But the weight is also incredibly high and I think these things ought to be rebalanced. If you have a chance go up to corner 10, the third sector, and watch the cars through the third sector. I haven’t done it this year but I did it the last few years. For me the cars look heavier than they used to. You can see in the way they behave. I think if I were designing for 2021 I would want to see a significant weight reduction."
Lowe admitted a reduction in car weight is “difficult to do in isolation”. He said: “You’d have to make some other decisions, some of which could be around economics, some of which could be around the specification of the cars and what’s within that.”
It's hard to argue against Paddy's sentiments here, lighter cars would handle better (and probably without the need for some of the very sophisticated suspension systems currently employed to make these beasts perform as they do). My concern is that the teams with the bigger budgets can spend more on designing light weight components and that cost increases significantly the more weight saving you are looking to achieve. So the real question is how could this be achieved this without penalising some of the smaller teams?
Formerly known as senna-toleman

FW17
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by FW17 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:05 am

Why are the current hybrid cars so heavy?

MP4-4 without the driver was 540 kgs, currently they are 650 kgs. Where is this extra weight coming from?

AngusF1
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Re: 2018 whopping car weight

Post by AngusF1 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:09 am

Because the boondoggle hybrid system Mercedes came up with to ensure only they and Ferrari had any shot at the title weighs an absolute tonne. A turbocharger, multiple electric motor-generators, batteries, power electronics, additional sensors and wiring, and cooling for it all are totally in excess of what's necessary to build a racing engine.

The current F1 engines are the space shuttles of motor racing and like the space shuttle, ought to be immediately retired out of embarrassment and replaced by something demonstrating even a hint of engineering discipline. They are also only affordable to those with NASA budgets.

A two litre two-stroke perhaps?