Wet setup?

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nokivasara
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Wet setup?

Post by nokivasara » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:36 pm

Is there much of a difference nowadays on a dry vs wet setup?
I was thinking that maybe the wet setup used to be softer sprung than a dry but todays suspensions are soft to begin with so is there any need to change it? Do they also run more wing in a wet setup?

Chene_Mostert
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by Chene_Mostert » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:46 pm

This whole wet / dry, quali / race, setup differences is a total myth. Teams bring the optimal DF / mechanical setup to the race based on their simulations and the just tweak the balance to driver pref / track variation.
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

hollus
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by hollus » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:24 pm

Well, the floor automatically raises with wet tires, so there must be some changes. I'll leave it to others which.
OK, OK, looks like Santa Claus is going to survive this summer after all.

SectorOne
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by SectorOne » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:23 am

I think it depends on the weekend but assuming its known to be rain on Saturday and Sunday,

More downforce,
More linear throttle mapping,
Maybe even an engine-map with less horsepower,
Raised car through rain tires,

Probably a few other tweaks in the setup to make it more compliant on an extremely low grip surface.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

DaveW
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by DaveW » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:03 am

Chene_Mostert wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:46 pm
This whole wet / dry, quali / race, setup differences is a total myth.
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system."

Forgive me, but those two statements don't seem to sit well together....Perhaps science is not often at its best in F1.

Steven
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by Steven » Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:16 am

The new 2017 chassis and aero regulations have introduced more variation in front and rear wing downforce levels from one circuit to the next. Previous years usually saw teams add as much as possible downforce as they could, on almost every track.

This variation must also have an impact on the possibilities to differ from dry to wet setup.

Now that I think of it, when is the last time we saw a team remove a gurney flap during a pitstop in recent years?

jz11
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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:32 pm

Re: Wet setup?

Post by jz11 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:40 am

Chene_Mostert wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:46 pm
This whole wet / dry, quali / race, setup differences is a total myth. Teams bring the optimal DF / mechanical setup to the race based on their simulations and the just tweak the balance to driver pref / track variation.
your statement is contradictory in itself

wet times are 10% or more slower than dry, so optimal dry setup with todays soft suspension relies on certain suspension travel for max grip and proper tire management, slower times mean less weight transfer in corners meaning less suspension travel, in order to fix that you will want overall softer suspension for wet, and on top of that, different aero elements on the car may work with different efficiency at those lower overall speeds, which will affect the balance of the car, so it just logical to assume that there will be differences in aero as well between wet/dry conditions

race vs. quali setup has different requirements for the car, quali is all about getting tire temp up fast, and it has to last just a lap or two with little extra load on board (fuel), race is quite different, you might as well sacrifice some aero to have to use less fuel to last the whole race distance (wasn't an issue in quali), which in turn will have an effect on tire degradation

having such a simplistic view on the cars setup is robbing yourself of the information you can notice watching the race

Chene_Mostert
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by Chene_Mostert » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:53 am

jz11 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:40 am
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:46 pm
This whole wet / dry, quali / race, setup differences is a total myth. Teams bring the optimal DF / mechanical setup to the race based on their simulations and the just tweak the balance to driver pref / track variation.
your statement is contradictory in itself

wet times are 10% or more slower than dry, so optimal dry setup with todays soft suspension relies on certain suspension travel for max grip and proper tire management, slower times mean less weight transfer in corners meaning less suspension travel, in order to fix that you will want overall softer suspension for wet, and on top of that, different aero elements on the car may work with different efficiency at those lower overall speeds, which will affect the balance of the car, so it just logical to assume that there will be differences in aero as well between wet/dry conditions

race vs. quali setup has different requirements for the car, quali is all about getting tire temp up fast, and it has to last just a lap or two with little extra load on board (fuel), race is quite different, you might as well sacrifice some aero to have to use less fuel to last the whole race distance (wasn't an issue in quali), which in turn will have an effect on tire degradation

having such a simplistic view on the cars setup is robbing yourself of the information you can notice watching the race
In your mind you are over complicating things, Are all the wet setup drivers changing to dry now for the start?
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

jz11
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by jz11 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:09 pm

am I? this isn't a procession, it is a race, if there is a lap time to be gained by adjusting suspension, you can be sure that they do it, maybe Sauber doesn't, but top teams most definitely exploit every possibility

and then there is the gamble, year or two ago, I don't remember which race, RB had set up both their cars for a wet track, and while the track was damp, they were near the top, looked really good despite that under powered Renault, but as soon as a dry line appeared, they started falling back, AFAIR both cars were well out of top 10 at the end

misterbeam
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by misterbeam » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:01 am

Different throttle maps, different energy deployment, softer suspension.

ChrisDanger
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Re: Wet setup?

Post by ChrisDanger » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:10 am

jz11 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:40 am
race vs. quali setup has different requirements for the car, quali is all about getting tire temp up fast, and it has to last just a lap or two with little extra load on board (fuel), race is quite different, you might as well sacrifice some aero to have to use less fuel to last the whole race distance (wasn't an issue in quali), which in turn will have an effect on tire degradation
With the cars in parc ferme between qualifying and the race, what setup changes can they actually make? Obviously if they could they would, but surely they can't, so they don't?

sosic2121
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Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Wet setup?

Post by sosic2121 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:51 am

jz11 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:09 pm
am I? this isn't a procession, it is a race, if there is a lap time to be gained by adjusting suspension, you can be sure that they do it, maybe Sauber doesn't, but top teams most definitely exploit every possibility

and then there is the gamble, year or two ago, I don't remember which race, RB had set up both their cars for a wet track, and while the track was damp, they were near the top, looked really good despite that under powered Renault, but as soon as a dry line appeared, they started falling back, AFAIR both cars were well out of top 10 at the end
Austin last year?

jz11
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Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:32 pm

Re: Wet setup?

Post by jz11 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:45 am

ChrisDanger wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:10 am
jz11 wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:40 am
race vs. quali setup has different requirements for the car, quali is all about getting tire temp up fast, and it has to last just a lap or two with little extra load on board (fuel), race is quite different, you might as well sacrifice some aero to have to use less fuel to last the whole race distance (wasn't an issue in quali), which in turn will have an effect on tire degradation
With the cars in parc ferme between qualifying and the race, what setup changes can they actually make? Obviously if they could they would, but surely they can't, so they don't?
I didn't mean there are suspension geometry changes in between qualification and race, I mean there can differences in setup for long stints with considerable fuel on board and short stints with light fuel, and how they handle the tires. So your actual setup will be something in between the 2 extremes for optimal race, and can be adjusted any direction depending on the track, probability of safety cars etc.

And I think there can be adjustments to front wing at least in between the quali and race, I think that FW with AoA set up for light fuel will make the car very unstable under braking (tendency for over steer) when it is starting the race with full fuel load, and then later you keep adding more AoA during pits.