New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:33 pm

I have been looking at something near the contact patch of the tyre. Maybe extensions off the sides of the diffuser.
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GrandAxe
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:56 am

Wings should do it. One or more small wings can be placed behind each tyre. The wings should be curved so that they can focus the spray upward and outward - similar to how a parabola focuses light - so that a much greater proportion of the car remains visible.

Image

GrandAxe
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by GrandAxe » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:06 am

WaikeCU wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:19 pm
Can tarmac be a solution? An innovative tarmac mixture that decreases the level of standing water? More like a sponge that absorbs it than water that just lays on top of the current tarmac waiting to be thrown up by cars driving over it.
The tarmac solution relies on coarse concrete which the huge torques generated in F1 might rip up, leading to accidents of the sort Massa had with a spring that came loose from Kimi's car. I know the tarmac mixture doesn't meet PlatinumZealots requirements, but since we are talking safety enhancements, I just thought I'd mention it.

DiogoBrand
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by DiogoBrand » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:48 am

If somehow covering the wheels would avoid the spray, then GT cars wouldn't produce it.
Image

Add that to F1 massive levels of speed and downforce, and you have a formula for uncontrollable spray no matter what you do.

krisfx
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by krisfx » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:08 am

DiogoBrand wrote:
Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:48 am
If somehow covering the wheels would avoid the spray, then GT cars wouldn't produce it.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... e120be.jpg

Add that to F1 massive levels of speed and downforce, and you have a formula for uncontrollable spray no matter what you do.
That would mean LMP1 cars would probably have less spray, right? I think the idea is slightly flawed.
Image

ChrisDanger
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by ChrisDanger » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:44 am

I think one problem would be that the water is effectively deflected outwards of the tyre (inside and outside), so any deflectors would need to be positioned on the sides on the tyres, not directly behind. This obviously poses problems for the outboard deflectors, which would then increase the width of the car. For me, this is a dealbreaker for deflectors.

From the video posted earlier.
Image

Image

The current tread pattern angle is quite extreme.

Image

So, for example, this would have negligible effect.

bill shoe wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:16 am
Image

During an interview Jenson Button explained how when driving in spray even though visibility is reduced you know where you are by bumps in the track. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kx7-e4mtss)

And Max Verstappen explained how in Brazill 2016 he kept out of Raikonnens spray, while Raikonnen stayed in Rosberg's spray, which helped him overtake Raikonnen into the first corner. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYJaqFOYGqw&t=54)

Basically, driving in the wet, and especially in spray, adds an element of difficulty and necessary skill to driving an F1 car. Do we really want to make it easier?

johnny comelately
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by johnny comelately » Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:37 pm

A concept to consider is a ducting incorporated in the bodywork as close as possible to the front tyres (as they are the first to encounter the water, which is dumped straight onto the rear tyre ! as shown on the Porsche photo above) to capture as much of the water as possible.
Aero would be used to assist with both low pressure management and vortices to help fence the water into the duct.
It is worth mentioning here that if this was effective it could change the design of wets to aid directing the water.
In this duct the radiators can be positioned (albeit with a new approach to heat exchange as they will be somewhat parallel with the flow (air and water)
Then it is not hard to imagine a condensing design to produce a more solid stream (and hence more manageable) to eject. (I'm not a urologist;)
The challenge is the dumping of the water...............
This was my approach to motorbikes and i can't see any reason why the same principle could not work on cars.

Andres125sx
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:02 am

There´s another option, much easier. Reduce wet tires width :P

That would also help reducing aquaplanning, wich is the most dangerous part of racing under the rain. As many people around here told me, aquaplanning is produced by the floor more than the wheels, so the wheel diameter should be a bit bigger. They are a bit bigger nowadays, but not enough obviously

Narrower and taller tires would be a better option I think

DiogoBrand
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by DiogoBrand » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:01 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:02 am
There´s another option, much easier. Reduce wet tires width :P

That would also help reducing aquaplanning, wich is the most dangerous part of racing under the rain. As many people around here told me, aquaplanning is produced by the floor more than the wheels, so the wheel diameter should be a bit bigger. They are a bit bigger nowadays, but not enough obviously

Narrower and taller tires would be a better option I think
Reducing the width might reduce the spray, but not considerably, since the aero also plays a big part in lifting all that water. Also I don't think the width will necessarily increase the chance of aquaplaning.
What we'd actually need is a tyre manufacurer that's capable of developing proping tyres, that way we wouldn't need 15 laps under the safety car every time a puddle appears on the track.

Andres125sx
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:47 pm

Disagree, about the tire width not related with aquaplanning, but I guess you mean with a proper thread it can be controlled and I can agree with that. Butt agree about aero, that´s the reason I said wet tires should be taller (more than actually). This way aero is reduced reducing spray, but also aquaplanning as the floor will increse clearance wich according to the experts is the main reason for aquaplanning on F1 cars. Two advantages with only one simple change

Grip would be drástically reduced, but the problem with wet racing is not reduced grip, but unexpected aquaplanning and poor visibility. If aquaplanning and spray are reduced, it doesn´t matter if the grip is low, while it is predictable (no aquaplanning) and visibility is ok, there would be no reason to red flag wet races as often as currently

DiogoBrand
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by DiogoBrand » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:13 pm

Andres125sx wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:47 pm
Disagree, about the tire width not related with aquaplanning, but I guess you mean with a proper thread it can be controlled and I can agree with that. Butt agree about aero, that´s the reason I said wet tires should be taller (more than actually). This way aero is reduced reducing spray, but also aquaplanning as the floor will increse clearance wich according to the experts is the main reason for aquaplanning on F1 cars. Two advantages with only one simple change

Grip would be drástically reduced, but the problem with wet racing is not reduced grip, but unexpected aquaplanning and poor visibility. If aquaplanning and spray are reduced, it doesn´t matter if the grip is low, while it is predictable (no aquaplanning) and visibility is ok, there would be no reason to red flag wet races as often as currently
I agree partly. Agree about tyres having to be of a larger diameter to keep the floor from aquaplaning, and about the better thread to keep the tyre from aquaplaning even if it's wider. Also agree about having weaker, but more predictable aero. I just don't think it's possible to avoid spray in any significant way, even with less aero and narrower tyres. Just look at the pictures above and you'll notice that even with weaker downforce, narrower tyres and covered wheels you still have a significant amount of spray.
My take is: Give the drivers cars and tyres that can drive on the rain without the need for a red flag every time a puddle appears, and let them deal with the spray by themselves, like drivers have always done.

Just_a_fan
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by Just_a_fan » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:40 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:10 pm
nokivasara wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:01 pm
I think deflectors are the wrong way to go, the amount of water at the track does not change, the amount of water lifted by the tires does not change, so there's the same amount of water that gets moved around...

Better draining of the tracks shouldn't be that difficult, corners are banked and only need a "sewer" system that transports the water away. The straights maybe could have more rounded profile (camber?) so the water runs to the sides where it can be collected and led away.
Whatever it takes to make racing in the wet possible is better than the situation we have now, with SC or red flags as soon as there is some rain.
The topic is not about draining of the tracks though. :wink:

This topic is about engineering a fender-less solution to deflect the spray in order to improve driver vision down the track.
So, the topic is about discussing a ridiculously complicated method of controlling spray when a ridiculously simple one already exists? Great, glad you let us know. :roll:
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Dazed1
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by Dazed1 » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:41 pm

Since those tires pump so much water, we simply hook a catch trailer to the cars for two warm-up laps, collect all the water then dump it off track.
(Yes, I am an American, why did you ask? ) :P

krisfx
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Re: New Safety enchancing device: Wheel Spray deflectors

Post by krisfx » Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:56 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:40 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:10 pm
nokivasara wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 8:01 pm
I think deflectors are the wrong way to go, the amount of water at the track does not change, the amount of water lifted by the tires does not change, so there's the same amount of water that gets moved around...

Better draining of the tracks shouldn't be that difficult, corners are banked and only need a "sewer" system that transports the water away. The straights maybe could have more rounded profile (camber?) so the water runs to the sides where it can be collected and led away.
Whatever it takes to make racing in the wet possible is better than the situation we have now, with SC or red flags as soon as there is some rain.
The topic is not about draining of the tracks though. :wink:

This topic is about engineering a fender-less solution to deflect the spray in order to improve driver vision down the track.
So, the topic is about discussing a ridiculously complicated method of controlling spray when a ridiculously simple one already exists? Great, glad you let us know. :roll:
+1 - Much like the blind spot indicators in the other thread. It's probably great in some application and I would never aim say an idea is bad, but it's obvious Zealot won't have anyone else's feedback unless they agree and it's also obvious that Zealot (like the other guy) has not thought of the big picture in his idea and is instead just looking to "engineer" a solution for the sake of it by way of filtering the criticism. #-o

I already posted a closed wheel car creating almost as much spray as an F1 car so I'm not sure the guy can be told.