2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
jjn9128
364
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

McMrocks wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:12 pm
Can someone explain to me where you read that "plane perpendicular to the front edge of the floor"? I just want to make sure i understood the rules and didn't miss something
A plane perpendicular to the front edge of the wing - I mis-typed #-o The swept leading edge of the wing which is a line from 1225mm ahead of the front axle line on the centreline, and 1025mm from the front axle line at y1000mm from the centreline.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

McMrocks
McMrocks
50
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:58 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:15 pm
McMrocks wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:12 pm
Can someone explain to me where you read that "plane perpendicular to the front edge of the floor"? I just want to make sure i understood the rules and didn't miss something
A plane perpendicular to the front edge of the wing - I mis-typed #-o The swept leading edge of the wing which is a line from 1225mm ahead of the front axle line on the centreline, and 1025mm from the front axle line at y1000mm from the centreline.
Alright, that's how i read it aswell 8)

McMrocks
McMrocks
50
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:58 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

DiogoBrand wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:21 pm
Changing the subject a bit, I'm really interested to know what is the solution that every team will converge to. With the past regulation, I believe Brawn was one of the first teams to introduce outwash as a means of controlling tyre wake in 2009, and that idea went all the way up to outwash tunnels with wide footplates, cascades with endplates swooping to the outside, sectioned elements to reinforce the Y250 vortex and so on and so on. Now I believe we have two main paths:

The more conventional one like Red Bull, with the outer section being as tall as possible to create something similar to the outwash tunnels, and the one from Ferrari, McLaren, Alfa and so one, that use the full 15 degrees of angle on the outer part of the wing, to try and throw the air outwards and create some outwash. I'm guessing that at the end of the year everyone will be using one of the two, my guess being the Ferrari solution, and until the end of next year I think we can expect some more clever solutions. I'm really curious to know what those will be.

Two less significant ideas I think may be interesting are Renault and Williams' cut out at the tip of the endplate, and also Williams using the adjustment plate to throw some air outwards, perhaps we'll see some combinations of these three solutions as time goes by.
Agree with you, it is very interesting to see different approaches in that area. And yes it will be very very very interesting to see which concept will be adopted by the teams. It could also be that the Ferrari/Torro Rosso approach works better in the first half of the year. But as soon as teams find rear downforce it could be hard for them to generate enough front downforce.

Image

This front wing for example has "almost" less than half of the frontal area of RB's front wing*.
*a bit less exaggerating: its probably still 65-75% of the frontal area

If there was so much of the wing missing last year, it was because the car had crashed.

It will be interesting to see if the teams which opted for the Ferrari approach have to revert to normal wing designs as the year goes on

It will be a great season engineering-wise,

Cheers

User avatar
gandharva
234
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:19 pm
Location: Munich

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

McMrocks wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:18 am
This front wing for example has "almost" less than half of the frontal area of RB's front wing*.
*a bit less exaggerating: its probably still 65-75% of the frontal area

If there was so much of the wing missing last year, it was because the car had crashed.

It will be interesting to see if the teams which opted for the Ferrari approach have to revert to normal wing designs as the year goes on
I also think the way RBR and Merc built their frontwings this year generates much higher downforce on the front of the car compared to a lot of the other teams. For RBR it should be even more df because of much higher rake. Only problem is that you then have to deal with more wake further back on the car. But if you are able to manage that wake despite using the high df frontwing, it could well be the better approach in long term. For example better tyre wear.

CriXus
CriXus
104
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:09 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

The outwash on the front wings was more important than the double-deck diffuser in 2009 season!
“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” - George Bernard Shaw

User avatar
godlameroso
411
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

What about flexing rear wings where they lower at speed?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

User avatar
DiogoBrand
95
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 6:02 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

McMrocks wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:18 am
DiogoBrand wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:21 pm
Changing the subject a bit, I'm really interested to know what is the solution that every team will converge to. With the past regulation, I believe Brawn was one of the first teams to introduce outwash as a means of controlling tyre wake in 2009, and that idea went all the way up to outwash tunnels with wide footplates, cascades with endplates swooping to the outside, sectioned elements to reinforce the Y250 vortex and so on and so on. Now I believe we have two main paths:

The more conventional one like Red Bull, with the outer section being as tall as possible to create something similar to the outwash tunnels, and the one from Ferrari, McLaren, Alfa and so one, that use the full 15 degrees of angle on the outer part of the wing, to try and throw the air outwards and create some outwash. I'm guessing that at the end of the year everyone will be using one of the two, my guess being the Ferrari solution, and until the end of next year I think we can expect some more clever solutions. I'm really curious to know what those will be.

Two less significant ideas I think may be interesting are Renault and Williams' cut out at the tip of the endplate, and also Williams using the adjustment plate to throw some air outwards, perhaps we'll see some combinations of these three solutions as time goes by.
Agree with you, it is very interesting to see different approaches in that area. And yes it will be very very very interesting to see which concept will be adopted by the teams. It could also be that the Ferrari/Torro Rosso approach works better in the first half of the year. But as soon as teams find rear downforce it could be hard for them to generate enough front downforce.

https://imgr3.auto-motor-und-sport.de/T ... 427965.jpg

This front wing for example has "almost" less than half of the frontal area of RB's front wing*.
*a bit less exaggerating: its probably still 65-75% of the frontal area

If there was so much of the wing missing last year, it was because the car had crashed.

It will be interesting to see if the teams which opted for the Ferrari approach have to revert to normal wing designs as the year goes on

It will be a great season engineering-wise,

Cheers
I don't think the front wings will have much trouble balancing the downforce, mainly for two reasons: First of all, up until this year, only a fraction of the front wing was used for downforce. Most of it was there just to condition the flow and help create downforce with the floor and diffuser. Secondly because the front wing is even wider this year.

User avatar
gandharva
234
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:19 pm
Location: Munich

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

CriXus wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:19 pm
The outwash on the front wings was more important than the double-deck diffuser in 2009 season!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWRQDbB ... .be&t=2638
Image

But nonetheless interesting insights from an F1 dinosaur.

roon
roon
449
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

CriXus wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:19 pm
The outwash on the front wings was more important than the double-deck diffuser in 2009 season!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWRQDbB ... .be&t=2638
Unable to view. What's his non-DDD explanation for why BrawnGP won in 2009?

Zynerji
Zynerji
80
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

roon wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:00 am
CriXus wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:19 pm
The outwash on the front wings was more important than the double-deck diffuser in 2009 season!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWRQDbB ... .be&t=2638
Unable to view. What's his non-DDD explanation for why BrawnGP won in 2009?
Outwash front wing.

User avatar
jjn9128
364
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

gandharva wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:33 pm
CriXus wrote:
Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:19 pm
The outwash on the front wings was more important than the double-deck diffuser in 2009 season!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWRQDbB ... .be&t=2638
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mob ... 19-238.jpg

But nonetheless interesting insights from an F1 dinosaur.
Slightly disrespectful about someone who's achieved more in F1 than many. Sorting the front wing has a significant cascade effect down the whole length of the car so I see no reason to not believe him - he's seen the data after all... you know, actual numbers on the aerodynamic effect rather than "CFD eyes" and a vague feeling about what's important.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

roon
roon
449
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

That the 2010-winning RB6 began using the familiar RB-type FW cascades in 2010 might lend credence to this view. But then, why did the 2010 Merc (with its BrawnGP FW) finish fourth? Were Ferrari and McLaren's front wings also accordingly improved? To me the '09 and '10 Ferrari front wings weren't radically different. Which makes me think the DDD was still pretty important.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
625
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:14 am
roon wrote:
Sun Feb 24, 2019 12:00 am
Unable to view. What's his non-DDD explanation for why BrawnGP won in 2009?
Outwash front wing.
I remember at the time, when the teams and the media were getting very hot about the double diffuser, Brawn said in an interview trackside that "they're looking at the wrong end of the car" and smiled. As others had double diffusers at the start of the season, we can surmise that he was right.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
MtthsMlw
838
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: Germany

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

I like how nearly everybody thought the new wing regulations were too restrictive to have differences between teams and now that's the biggest talking point of the season so far.

https://twitter.com/Vetteleclerc/status ... 31426?s=19

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post

All this post-2009 hype about Brawn GP's outwash concept seems to be a bit blown out of proportion. Last night I was reading the relevant chapter in Adrian Newey's book and he explained how the RB5 was born as an outwash front wing car, which surprised me, followed by how once they made some sort of double diffuser, it immediately became the faster car at aero tracks.
Lo and behold, see this picture of the first corner in Melbourne 2009:
Image
Almost everyone had some sort of outwash concept for the first race of the season. McLaren didn't and look where they are (other problems too, I know). In fact, thet McLaren endplate looks a lot like the current Mercedes one :? .
What Brawn had was a way more evolved, multi-element wing, with multiple elements in the end plate, way more aggressive outwash, with more area dedicated to the outwash and less to downforce. They even had the first cascade. But they were far from alone in having the outwash from the onset.
¡Puxa Esportin!