2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

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Zynerji
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Zynerji » Sun May 05, 2019 9:23 pm

roon wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:18 pm
Odd to think that in the history of F1, wheel covers were banned quite a long time ago but wings and floors were not. Guess it is easier to say "the wheels must no be covered" than it is to try and define what bodywork is. Also easy to say "the bodywork must not move," to obvious effect.

Choices are made to truncate tech development regardless of whether performance improves or declines. The criteria for decision-making not always clear.
If they integrated a super simple fender into the brake duct housing that would wrap around the tyre, how much quicker would the current cars be? I read that most drag is from the tyres in the current formula, but would that really change if they were simple-shrouded (no flicks/wings, just a smooth fender that is shrink wrapped to the tyre profile)?

strad
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by strad » Mon May 06, 2019 1:46 am

I believe that is true. I have heard the same thing. :wink:
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Zynerji
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Zynerji » Mon May 06, 2019 1:50 am

strad wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 1:46 am
I believe that is true. I have heard the same thing. :wink:
Well, profile wouldn't change, just Magnus effect, so would it really help?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon May 06, 2019 8:55 am

A shrink-wrap cover over the tyre brings other issues and there is still a non-stable wake to deal with.
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jjn9128
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by jjn9128 » Mon May 06, 2019 5:25 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 8:55 am
A shrink-wrap cover over the tyre brings other issues and there is still a non-stable wake to deal with.
You're right that it's still a big bluff body, but removing the surface rotation would at least reduce the wake size as the rotating surface promotes earlier flow separation over the top of the wheel. The wing they're suggesting for 2021 should have a similar effect. Properly fairing the wheels is still the best option though.
#aerogandalf

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon May 06, 2019 6:52 pm

You'll still get interesting flows off the side as the air between tyre and cover tries to find ways out. However that could be countered in ways that are standardized across the teams.

You'll also have the fun of changing tyres with a close fitting cover - unless the intention is to have the cover and tyre fitted as an item like the old fairings were.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Zynerji
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Zynerji » Tue May 07, 2019 5:09 am

I was more thinking of the leading edge of the fender. If it was round like the tyre, the profile drag should remain the same, but separation would be different. Now if the leading edge was a wedge shape, and the top of the fender was vented, I would expect huge jumps in drag reduction.

Just wondering if they went far enough with the 2021 "tyre blade".

dren
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by dren » Mon May 13, 2019 4:37 pm

subcritical71 wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:28 am
For me, I think I need to wait a few more races before deciding. Melbourne was, well, Melbourne. And Bahrain had the 3 DRS zones so I’m not totally convinced if it was the 2019 changes or the DRS that made it.
The new regulations have made the cars more draggy, which improves drafting. That, along with more DRS zones have helped the cars stay closer. It still looks like it's hard to stay close in the twisties.
Honda!

JordanMugen
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by JordanMugen » Tue May 14, 2019 3:50 am

Does it seem that the Mercedes solution of low rake and long wheelbase is the "best" solution for the 2019 regulations since it is less sensitive to floor sealing, and can produce a less suction pressure but over a larger floor area and more consistently, thereby also devoting front wing to downforce production and not outwash...

Or... the Mercedes is the best performer simply because it is more developed than the other teams, and the other teams just need to add development, rather than switch to low rake, long wheelbase concepts? :wink:


It is curious that are the other teams all still trying to run high rake to different extents... :wink: I suppose these other teams guessed they would develop ways to seal the floor properly later on.

Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto said an investigation was now under way to get to the bottom of its struggles, as he says the team may have to concede that the concept it adopted this year was wrong.

When the 2019 cars were launched, Mercedes and Ferrari took totally different paths with their front wing designs. Mercedes had opted for a high-downforce solution, while Ferrari had taken a route to better manage outwash and improve efficiency.

Binotto says, "is it a matter of balance, is it a matter of downforce, is it maybe even car concept? I don't know. I think we do not have the answer and I would like not to go through it."
https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... g/4387517/

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Fri May 17, 2019 9:00 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 3:50 am
Does it seem that the Mercedes solution of low rake and long wheelbase is the "best" solution for the 2019 regulations since it is less sensitive to floor sealing, and can produce a less suction pressure but over a larger floor area and more consistently, thereby also devoting front wing to downforce production and not outwash...

Or... the Mercedes is the best performer simply because it is more developed than the other teams, and the other teams just need to add development, rather than switch to low rake, long wheelbase concepts? :wink:


It is curious that are the other teams all still trying to run high rake to different extents... :wink: I suppose these other teams guessed they would develop ways to seal the floor properly later on.

Ferrari team boss Mattia Binotto said an investigation was now under way to get to the bottom of its struggles, as he says the team may have to concede that the concept it adopted this year was wrong.

When the 2019 cars were launched, Mercedes and Ferrari took totally different paths with their front wing designs. Mercedes had opted for a high-downforce solution, while Ferrari had taken a route to better manage outwash and improve efficiency.

Binotto says, "is it a matter of balance, is it a matter of downforce, is it maybe even car concept? I don't know. I think we do not have the answer and I would like not to go through it."
https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferra ... g/4387517/
There is still a way to seal the floor with high rake concept, but it's tricky to do. Mercedes has to do it as well to a certain extent.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Sun May 19, 2019 3:46 pm

Image

Williams had that little beak on their bargeboards last year, that thing has to be tripping a vortex.

McLaren also had something like that in 2017.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Ringleheim
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Ringleheim » Sun May 19, 2019 6:58 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 9:23 pm
roon wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 8:18 pm
Odd to think that in the history of F1, wheel covers were banned quite a long time ago but wings and floors were not. Guess it is easier to say "the wheels must no be covered" than it is to try and define what bodywork is. Also easy to say "the bodywork must not move," to obvious effect.

Choices are made to truncate tech development regardless of whether performance improves or declines. The criteria for decision-making not always clear.
If they integrated a super simple fender into the brake duct housing that would wrap around the tyre, how much quicker would the current cars be? I read that most drag is from the tyres in the current formula, but would that really change if they were simple-shrouded (no flicks/wings, just a smooth fender that is shrink wrapped to the tyre profile)?
The tires create a huge amount of drag, but don't forget the wings! If a car is going 190mph down a pit straight and the driver lifts his foot off the gas, the wings and overall downforce of the car are sufficient to produce about 1G of deceleration. That is like a "slam on the brakes panic stop" in your road car.

That's just from lifting off the throttle and without pushing the brake pedal on the F1 car!

I don't think the average fan watching on TV has any idea whatsoever how physical driving a modern F1 car is. An average person wouldn't be able to hold his head upright after a couple of laps of driving, if he had the talent to drive the car at speed in the first place.

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Sun May 19, 2019 9:48 pm

If you can walk up 60 flights of stairs without stopping, or around 900 stairs you are fit enough to drive an f1 car. It's not really that physically demanding. If you can jog 5km you can drive a f1 car. Now whether you'll be any good is an entirely different matter.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

strad
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by strad » Mon May 20, 2019 3:57 am

main need is strong neck muscles.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Just_a_fan » Mon May 20, 2019 8:38 am

Exactly. Being fit enough to run up multiple flights of stairs won't help when you're pulling 5g and the helmet is trying to pull you head off. Drivers specifically train their necks because of this.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"