2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:23 am

JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:42 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:39 pm
No driver in F1 wants oversteer.
Are you sure?
Your examples are road cars without downforce, they also, I'm going to guess, don't regularly corner at significant 3-figure speeds. You absolutely don't want oversteer when you're turning in to a corner at 150mph. F1 cars have so much grunt that they can induce oversteer with the throttle in slow/medium speed corners so you don't need to make the car inherently oversteer-biased. A slightly understeering - and by this I mean a car that for most would be too pointy but for a top driver is just understeering - is preferable because it allows the driver to push and to play with the back end if he wants to. Left foot braking allows the driver to change the balance dynamically too, as I understand it.

I've seen quotes from Hamilton saying he prefers a bit of understeer. He got a bit of a reputation for liking a mobile rear end in his early days, but that was just down to how he was getting the car to do what he wanted it to do. He could handle it but it wasn't his preference.

Vettel seems to want a responsive front end initially but then a rear that is absolutely planted on exit. That's why he was so good in the blown diffuser days - going on the throttle helped the rear to grip through additonal downforce and fitted his preferred style (Webber was quicker than Vettel until the blown diffuser, remember). That doesn't sound like someone who wants oversteer.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:24 pm

Image

What a wonderful angle, it really shows the intent behind the wing geometry.
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strad
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by strad » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:49 pm

Are you sure?
By and large he is correct. The vast majority of drivers prefer slight understeer to oversteer and it is much easier for them to control.
All road cars are built with understeer built in. Especially FWD cars.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:59 pm

strad wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:49 pm
Are you sure?
By and large he is correct. The vast majority of drivers prefer slight understeer to oversteer and it is much easier for them to control.
All road cars are built with understeer built in. Especially FWD cars.
Even RWD cars, staggering wheel sizes as they do creates understeer because the front has less grip than the rear.

RWD cars that run non staggered setups have to do unconventional things to compensate for the oversteer the bigger contact patch up front gives you. Removing the rear roll bar entirely in some cases.
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JordanMugen
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by JordanMugen » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:10 pm

strad wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:49 pm
All road cars are built with understeer built in. Especially FWD cars.
Image

:raises eyebrow: :wink:

Davide Cironi says:
205 GTi could be called a coffin. It seems predictable and manageable in slow, tight turns. However, in 3rd, 4th or worse, 5th gear turns, you will realise the rear wants to overtake the front so bad so you will wear your car as a hat.
https://youtu.be/NoX32kUhezU?t=17

So much for "all" bog-standard road cars being tuned for understeer, especially FWD -- one should always avoid such generalisations. :wink:

If anything I would argue that well designed sporty FWD road cars (e.g., Renault, Ford, older Peugeots) usually have less chassis understeer than comparable sporty RWD road cars (e.g., BMW, Mercedes). FWD race cars, particularly Super Tourers and BTCC, are renowned for having a lot of oversteer and being rather exciting to drive!

Regardless I will have to take my car out to the countryside and see if I need to change the rear swaybar from 22mm to 19mm, I would rather not change the swaybar *again* though. Maybe instead I could up the front spring rate from 6 kg/mm to 8 kg/mm, but that would reduce ride comfort. Either way a lot of bother. :( [The car also runs a slightly staggered wheel set-up, 17x8.5 up front (original rear from a RX7 Spirit R), 17x8 in the rear (originally front on RX7 Spirit R). Same 225mm tyres on all corners (as with the RX7), but the front visibly has a wider contact patch on the road.]

strad
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by strad » Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:50 pm

rear wants to overtake the front so bad so you will wear your car as a hat.
Maybe if you lift.
However, in the real world, all cars (race cars or otherwise) will understeer or oversteer when driven hard enough. Cars with front wheel drive are far more likely to push in the corners than rear-wheel drive cars, which are more likely to be loose.
.
With FWD you have the engine, gearbox, half shafts, differential all in the front of the car (some of it even in front of the front wheels) which results in an extremely heavy front end (often greater than 63% of the weight). This causes under steer.
The reason this causes under steer is the following. Weight does indeed increase traction, however the amount of traction gained from increased weight ceases to be linear at a certain load (what load this is depends on the tire). So if we have 1000 lbs on the front of the car, the lateral grip supported from it might only be 800 lbs worth. If you keep adding weight the difference between the mass of the front of the car, and the amount of mass it can support in a corner gets larger and larger.
.
No matter the type of car or drivetrain, there is something basically all road cars have in common: understeer. Ever since the Corvair was accused of being dangerous to drive because people didn't understand how to drive it, manufacturers have built nearly every series production car to understeer, since it's considered safer and easier to control than a car that oversteers.
(road and track)
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browney
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by browney » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:33 pm

Is there likely to be any changes for 2020? It seems like the 2019 rule changes have ended up not having the desired result as you still need a big speed advantage over the car infront to make a pass compared to other series. It would be possible to make some incremental changes to try and have some better racing next year.

Personally, I'd be happy to see the cars drop several seconds in lap time to be able to have cars follow each other to the same degree as formula 2 and indycar. It seems to only by Formula 1 that has decided that lap time is more important than racing.

izzy
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by izzy » Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:38 pm

browney wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:33 pm
Is there likely to be any changes for 2020? It seems like the 2019 rule changes have ended up not having the desired result as you still need a big speed advantage over the car infront to make a pass compared to other series. It would be possible to make some incremental changes to try and have some better racing next year.

Personally, I'd be happy to see the cars drop several seconds in lap time to be able to have cars follow each other to the same degree as formula 2 and indycar. It seems to only by Formula 1 that has decided that lap time is more important than racing.
yes they've made the cars too fast for the tracks and too wide and with terrible aero haven't they. The 2017 changes were the worst, when they openly just set out to make them look faster and go faster and didn't care about the racing at all, like they were 8 years old! But now it's too late to change it for 2020 anyway. Hopefully the other teams will develop enough to work the tyres, at least

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by SmallSoldier » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:46 pm

izzy wrote:
browney wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:33 pm
Is there likely to be any changes for 2020? It seems like the 2019 rule changes have ended up not having the desired result as you still need a big speed advantage over the car infront to make a pass compared to other series. It would be possible to make some incremental changes to try and have some better racing next year.

Personally, I'd be happy to see the cars drop several seconds in lap time to be able to have cars follow each other to the same degree as formula 2 and indycar. It seems to only by Formula 1 that has decided that lap time is more important than racing.
yes they've made the cars too fast for the tracks and too wide and with terrible aero haven't they. The 2017 changes were the worst, when they openly just set out to make them look faster and go faster and didn't care about the racing at all, like they were 8 years old! But now it's too late to change it for 2020 anyway. Hopefully the other teams will develop enough to work the tyres, at least
I actually appreciate the fact of how fast this cars are and the technology behind them... How intricate they have become.

Agree that the problem is that tracks are too small for the cars, they just have so much acceleration that even a tow doesn’t have an effect soon enough to promote overtakes.

But I would hate for the sport to go backwards.


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izzy
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by izzy » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:04 am

SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:46 pm
I actually appreciate the fact of how fast this cars are and the technology behind them... How intricate they have become.

Agree that the problem is that tracks are too small for the cars, they just have so much acceleration that even a tow doesn’t have an effect soon enough to promote overtakes.

But I would hate for the sport to go backwards.
Oh i agree i love the technology being so extreme and i can't wait to be standing at Copse while they blat past in a massive maelstrom!! But they have to fit the tracks, as you say the power means the leading car gets such a jump onto the straight there's hardly any racing with them, on top of the following issue

FPV GTHO
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by FPV GTHO » Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:46 pm

browney wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:33 pm
Is there likely to be any changes for 2020? It seems like the 2019 rule changes have ended up not having the desired result as you still need a big speed advantage over the car infront to make a pass compared to other series. It would be possible to make some incremental changes to try and have some better racing next year.

Personally, I'd be happy to see the cars drop several seconds in lap time to be able to have cars follow each other to the same degree as formula 2 and indycar. It seems to only by Formula 1 that has decided that lap time is more important than racing.
I think one of the conditions of shaking things up for both 2019 and 2021 was to keep 2020 stable.

MatsNorway
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by MatsNorway » Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:17 pm

They need to trim down the wings/simplify the aero regs for closer following and allow cars to be built lighter. Then they will be able to keep the lap times. Might need to drop fancy hybrid stuff for that to happen. It could be optional. Makes it cheaper for the midfield and back to compete too.
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roon
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by roon » Tue Jul 02, 2019 6:56 pm

Image

Image

JordanMugen
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by JordanMugen » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:31 pm

izzy wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:38 pm
too wide
F1 cars are still 15cm narrower than they were from the 1970s until 1992. The width is not the problem.

Image
Image

The "squashed" 1.8m era cars look absurd by comparison.

2017's 2.0m rule is an improvement but still the proper width should be restored IMO.

jjn9128
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by jjn9128 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 8:59 pm

Not all the narrow track cars looked absurd.. in fact from 1998 to 2005 they looked pretty damn good!!
Image


In fact the 2009-16 cars would have looked a lot better proportioned with the 2008 rear wings
Image

even swapped (narrow front and rear wings) they looked alright!!
Image

It was the combo of a wide front wing and narrow rear wing which just made the cars look unbalanced (visually).
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