2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by JordanMugen » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:43 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:27 am
I wonder whether you could make a halo that worked as well, using other materials and yet was lighter.

Halo is a control part supplied by FIA. It has to be on the car as supplied (with optional custom fairing). I don't see any development avenues there.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:33 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:43 pm

Halo is a control part supplied by FIA. It has to be on the car as supplied (with optional custom fairing). I don't see any development avenues there.
Yes, I know. I was responding to another member's idea about "cheating" by making a lightweight, but externally identical, halo.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

roon
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by roon » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:56 am

godlameroso, i figured you might want to see these:

Image

Image

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:24 pm

To what extent can the air coming through the side pods and out the back + exhaust heat can be channeled and encouraged to help the upwash on the vortecies coming off the diffuser?

As roon has demonstrated, the openings in the rear, crash structure, diffuser, and exhaust all contribute to the vortecies being created by the floor.

Image

Mercedes is clearly aiming the airflow through the sidepods, as is Ferrari and Red Bull. Other teams take a more spray and pray approach.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

roon
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by roon » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:57 pm

As you eluded to in the RB15 thread, the strategic aim of the WG pipes might be affecting the velocity and pressure of vortexes forming at and aft of the rear of the car. I think of the exhaust blown diffusers. They were situated directly at the point of vortex formation, but these wastegates outlets are not, by decree. Presumably this reduced proximity would reduce effectiveness, however mass flow and velocity from the WG pipes are potentially much greater than what the NA V8 exhausts could achieve.

I'm curious to figure out if the turbine can be used to create significant exhaust backpressure. If it can impede flow enough via rotational velocity then perhaps all exhaust flow can be routed through the wastegate pipes.

If anyone knows approximate intake flow rates and exhaust pressure values we could an idea of WG flow properties. Their diameters are prescribed within a range.

henry
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by henry » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:18 pm

roon wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:57 pm
As you eluded to in the RB15 thread, the strategic aim of the WG pipes might be affecting the velocity and pressure of vortexes forming at and aft of the rear of the car. I think of the exhaust blown diffusers. They were situated directly at the point of vortex formation, but these wastegates outlets are not, by decree. Presumably this reduced proximity would reduce effectiveness, however mass flow and velocity from the WG pipes are potentially much greater than what the NA V8 exhausts could achieve.

I'm curious to figure out if the turbine can be used to create significant exhaust backpressure. If it can impede flow enough via rotational velocity then perhaps all exhaust flow can be routed through the wastegate pipes.

If anyone knows approximate intake flow rates and exhaust pressure values we could an idea of WG flow properties. Their diameters are prescribed within a range.
I think exhaust mass flows are around 0.5kg/sec and 0.7kg/sec for V8 and turbo respectively.

I don’t know how the flow is split between main and wastegate pipes.

I took:
Air 2.4 litre at 18000 rpm, VE 1.2, AFR 13:1.
Fuel 27.8 g/sec at AFR 22:1

Edit: the value for the V8 should be 0.6. I mistyped the density of air.
Last edited by henry on Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

JordanMugen
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by JordanMugen » Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:39 am

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:24 pm
To what extent can the air coming through the side pods and out the back + exhaust heat can be channeled and encouraged to help the upwash on the vortecies coming off the diffuser?
The air coming out of the sidepods is low momentum air that has had all the energy taken out of it, by passing through all the radiators and so on.
upwash on the vortecies coming off the diffuser?
Isn't the upwash mostly from the huge counter rotating vortex pair generated by the rear wing?

Maritimer
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Maritimer » Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:44 am

Looks more to me like there are recirculation bubbles either side of the crash structure, the angles wastegate pipes are an attempt to stabilize the area and move the air away where it gets swept up by the end plate vorteces.

roon
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by roon » Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:39 am

Not new, but notice the sloped spade shaped engine cover outlet of the RB15. Distinct from Ferrari, Merc, and others with dips in the same area, making a club shaped outlet.

Image



Image


godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:07 pm

[quote=JordanMugen post_id=854774
The air coming out of the sidepods is low momentum air that has had all the energy taken out of it, by passing through all the radiators and so on.
[/quote]

The air coming off the radiators is ducted and heated. For one the radiators are not very restrictive, and the outlets are tapered which increases flow velocity. The heat from the engine, radiators and shape of the body work all serve to add energy to the air. Heat is a form of energy.
Isn't the upwash mostly from the huge counter rotating vortex pair generated by the rear wing?
The floor has two huge ones as well that merge with the rear wing. Or at least should if you want a fast car.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by Just_a_fan » Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:34 pm

The Mercedes aims air from above the bodywork down towards the devices on the side of the crash structure, along with diffuser upstand that sits in the 150mm zone either side of the centreline. The RedBull seems more interested in flow going further to the sides, maybe helping with the tyre squirt gap. Different approaches perhaps because they have different approaches to rake etc.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

MtthsMlw
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by MtthsMlw » Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:00 pm

Interesting design, cutting drag but retaining their normal Y250 setup.
Image
AMuS

JordanMugen
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by JordanMugen » Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:27 pm

MtthsMlw wrote:
Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:00 pm
Interesting design, cutting drag but retaining their normal Y250 setup.
https://imgr1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/T ... 625256.jpg
AMuS
Fancy! I like that.

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:49 pm

Why the fences on the deflectors for Mercedes? Why did they work for them and not Haas?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aerodynamic Changes & Solutions

Post by godlameroso » Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:24 am

Red Bull should really thank Honda, not only are they getting a good power unit, they also had the winning design for the side pod end fences all along.

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Image

Mercedes isn't even close.

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Granted this doesn't take the rest of the car into consideration but this area is very important. I feel that Toro Rosso was used as a Guinea pig as it sprouted a very rudimentary version sometime around Singapore.

Image

Of course the first team to introduce this concept this year was Haas.
Image

But they haven't gotten it to work any better than when the season started despite constantly modifying this area.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee