2022 Aero Thread

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Stu
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:50 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:42 pm
That last paragraph…
When you consider the homologation date for design finalisation, it almost makes me wonder whether there will be another postponement!
Honestly, I think it's being done intentionally to hinder the top teams as much as possible, as they want the grid to be as jumbled up as possible.
You would have thought that the regs around wind tunnel/CFD usage AND the budget cap would sort that out; there is not less ‘intelligence’ at the smaller teams, just less (financial) ability to exploit it. It would be a great shame if the outcome of the lack of certainty of the new aero regs is what decides the next WDC/WCC. 🤦‍♂️
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...

dans79
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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Stu wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:05 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:50 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:42 pm
That last paragraph…
When you consider the homologation date for design finalisation, it almost makes me wonder whether there will be another postponement!
Honestly, I think it's being done intentionally to hinder the top teams as much as possible, as they want the grid to be as jumbled up as possible.
You would have thought that the regs around wind tunnel/CFD usage AND the budget cap would sort that out; there is not less ‘intelligence’ at the smaller teams, just less (financial) ability to exploit it. It would be a great shame if the outcome of the lack of certainty of the new aero regs is what decides the next WDC/WCC. 🤦‍♂️
what I meant is that by not finalizing some stuff till late in the season, it renders a big budget useless. After a certain point, it doesn't matter how amazing your facilities are, or how much money you have, you just don't have the time to develop, manufacture, and test components fast enough to gain a competitive edge.

Instead of iterating over a series of designs, teams might only have enough time for 1 or 2iterationss.
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Stu
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Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:15 pm
Stu wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:05 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:50 pm


Honestly, I think it's being done intentionally to hinder the top teams as much as possible, as they want the grid to be as jumbled up as possible.
You would have thought that the regs around wind tunnel/CFD usage AND the budget cap would sort that out; there is not less ‘intelligence’ at the smaller teams, just less (financial) ability to exploit it. It would be a great shame if the outcome of the lack of certainty of the new aero regs is what decides the next WDC/WCC. 🤦‍♂️
what I meant is that by not finalizing some stuff till late in the season, it renders a big budget useless. After a certain point, it doesn't matter how amazing your facilities are, or how much money you have, you just don't have the time to develop, manufacture, and test components fast enough to gain a competitive edge.

Instead of iterating over a series of designs, teams might only have enough time for 1 or 2iterationss.
My post should infer that I agree with you point of view, however I do think that it would be a great shame if the 2022 titles are decided by luck (choosing the correct iteration to use your remaining tunnel/CFD time!) This sort of thing used to have a minimum time to introduction applied to it. When you consider that they should be racing with these regulations THIS YEAR, it really isn’t great that we do not know what the final regulations are as we approach August in the year that they should have been introduced.
Common sense is not as common as stupidity, but it is better to be uninformed than to be mis-informed...

Hoffman900
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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The one thing the top teams have is their library of knowledge in correlation of cfd / wind tunnel / real world. No amount of budget cap is going to make them unlearn that.

They will always need less cfd time because they aren’t going to be chasing correlation issues.

American sports have budget caps, but it doesn’t stop dynasties from forming. F1 is going to be no different.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:34 pm
The one thing the top teams have is their library of knowledge in correlation of cfd / wind tunnel / real world. No amount of budget cap is going to make them unlearn that.

They will always need less cfd time because they aren’t going to be chasing correlation issues.

American sports have budget caps, but it doesn’t stop dynasties from forming. F1 is going to be no different.
James Key said this:
I think what it’s lacking is the approach an F1 team would take with those regs, which is to iterate the hell out of it, basically, and come up with a very refined solution based on a lot of time of development.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/07/23/f1 ... e-insight/

Is it really sport or skill to just "iterate the heck" out of something. :?:

Hopefully the regulations will reward design skill over brute force.

...Of course in saying that, many great things (e.g., the theatrical edit of Star Wars in 1977) only got there after many iterations, with the early edits deemed a mess of schlocky sci-fi dross! :shock: "Forgive the long letter, I did not have the time to write a short one."

Stu wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:23 pm
(choosing the correct iteration to use your remaining tunnel/CFD time!)
In the 1980 it wasn't feasible to test 10 different designs, when there was only one person to do the drawings and operate the wind tunnel and analyse the results. Shouldn't that be what F1 aims to recreate? :)

By all means finetune the stall characteristics, but it needs to be principally the right design straight off the pencil onto the drawing board and sent down to the fabrication shop, surely? :) Much like Mr. Barnard's Chaparral.

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jjn9128
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:39 pm
James Key said this:
I think what it’s lacking is the approach an F1 team would take with those regs, which is to iterate the hell out of it, basically, and come up with a very refined solution based on a lot of time of development.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/07/23/f1 ... e-insight/

Is it really sport or skill to just "iterate the heck" out of something. :?:

Hopefully the regulations will reward design skill over brute force.

...Of course in saying that, many great things (e.g., the theatrical edit of Star Wars in 1977) only got there after many iterations, with the early edits deemed a mess of schlocky sci-fi dross! :shock: "Forgive the long letter, I did not have the time to write a short one."

Stu wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:23 pm
(choosing the correct iteration to use your remaining tunnel/CFD time!)
In the 1980 it wasn't feasible to test 10 different designs, when there was only one person to do the drawings and operate the wind tunnel and analyse the results. Shouldn't that be what F1 aims to recreate? :)

By all means finetune the stall characteristics, but it needs to be principally the right design straight off the pencil onto the drawing board and sent down to the fabrication shop, surely? :) Much like Mr. Barnard's Chaparral.
Yeah you don't get bargeboards like they have now by pure design, its just brute forcing the --- out of it. Design a few variants, iterate, do angle sweep, iterate... rinse, repeat...

The 100-200 odd aerodynamicists at each team have to do something.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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What would be the aero benefit of shaping the cover like an old school steel rim?
Wheel covers can have an annoying aero effect when cornering. Essentially the curved shape of the wheel cover relative to the direction of travel can generate aerodynamic forces left or right when lock is applied. This can induce either oversteer or understeer, and is tricky to manage because the driver doesn't feel it the same way they normally feel tire behaviour. I think this was a problem in indycar some years ago.

I would suggest the rippled cross-section that these new wheel covers present to the airflow is intended to reduce this effect. This is pretty speculative on my part, but it's the only reason I can think of since it can't be due to aesthetics!