2021 Aero Thread

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roon
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by roon » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:58 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:08 pm
strad wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:00 pm
As I've said before; I don't think the average TV viewer would even notice if the cars were doing 100mph or 120mph thru a given corner. At the track it might be more noticeable but not on TV where most watch races.
Same for top speed.
Yip, the easiest and cheapest way to reduce lap times is shorten tracks.

The best way to avoid back markers to lengthen tracks
I have two words for you. Rolling roads. No corners and all straights. About as wide as five cars, long as a starting grid. Pop up tracks in any city, no matter how small the market. "Hey, this billionaire's backyard is open the fourth week of July. And they also need a bouncy castle." It's lights out and away we go.

Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Big Tea » Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:08 pm

roon wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:58 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:08 pm
strad wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:00 pm
As I've said before; I don't think the average TV viewer would even notice if the cars were doing 100mph or 120mph thru a given corner. At the track it might be more noticeable but not on TV where most watch races.
Same for top speed.
Yip, the easiest and cheapest way to reduce lap times is shorten tracks.

The best way to avoid back markers to lengthen tracks
I have two words for you. Rolling roads. No corners and all straights. About as wide as five cars, long as a starting grid. Pop up tracks in any city, no matter how small the market. "Hey, this billionaire's backyard is open the fourth week of July. And they also need a bouncy castle." It's lights out and away we go.
And virtual passengers too :twisted:
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by JordanMugen » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:05 pm

strad wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:00 pm
As I've said before; I don't think the average TV viewer would even notice if the cars were doing 100mph or 120mph thru a given corner. At the track it might be more noticeable but not on TV where most watch races.
Same for top speed.
Have you watched F2 or even Indycar on a road course?

Hungary F2 race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh5kbufOfSQ
vs Hungary F1 race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnz-lc9LYgo

It is patently obvious they are much slower through corners (and elsewhere) than F1. Far from "unnoticeable". F2 are obviously far slower vehicles, very obviously so. Adding 10 seconds [like F2] or 20 seconds per lap to F1 would be very noticeable.
mzso wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:17 pm
Unless they race each-other spectacularly...
It is true that slow pitching, diving and rolling touring cars like BTCC don't seem slow because one is so focussed on the great battles. But the same logic of a road saloon not seeming slow - a very flawed race car - does not apply to Formula cars where all the components are deliberately placed on the floor for optimal handling.

Traditional Formula 3 cars, for example, have almost no downforce compared to F1, and have the slow corner speeds you desire -- yet their racing on wide Grand Prix circuits like Hockenhiem is often dull and of minor interest. :( [F3 cars are not too bad to watch on tight street circuits like Macau and Bathurst however :)... However the extra performance of F1 around Bathurst is definitely BETTER to watch, IMO.]

Surely no one is watching an F1 car go around Bathurst and thinking, gee this would be just as good with much, much lower corner speeds!? https://youtu.be/NHvkhlP4XUU?t=74 :?: #-o

Recall that even with virtually no downforce (so they should be able to race each other easily right?), BTCC still needs to use ballast and reverse grid rules to ensure close racing. Even without downforce, you can very easily end up with a boring procession (refer V8 Supercars).

Capharol
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Capharol » Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:17 am

JordanMugen wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:05 pm
strad wrote:
Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:00 pm
As I've said before; I don't think the average TV viewer would even notice if the cars were doing 100mph or 120mph thru a given corner. At the track it might be more noticeable but not on TV where most watch races.
Same for top speed.
Have you watched F2 or even Indycar on a road course?

Hungary F2 race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh5kbufOfSQ
vs Hungary F1 race: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnz-lc9LYgo

It is patently obvious they are much slower through corners (and elsewhere) than F1. Far from "unnoticeable". F2 are obviously far slower vehicles, very obviously so. Adding 10 seconds [like F2] or 20 seconds per lap to F1 would be very noticeable.
maybe at first but after a few races it will become normal, thats the same when you take a new road to your job, at first you notice every new detail, after a while you don't see them anymore because you see them all the time

i think what strad meant was, as it is now you won't notice the difference if a car lifts through Eau Rouge or going Flat through, because we can't see infront of the TV (where the most fans are to watch F1) a difference if a car goes 130 Kmh or 133 Kmh through a corner, the speed difference we see on TV is at 10-15 Kmh, then we start to notice "hey the cars go slower"

for me they don't need to go faster, if they lose 20 Kmh of speed but instead have closer racing (1 car can follow an other one closer) i would say lets do it.
timetables for me are only to compare the laptimes between the cars, i don't care in which corner, which car went through with the highest speed. these things Sky now shows are gagdets for fans that only watch the race because of the race, not because of the ppl that look further into it.
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by NL_Fer » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:20 pm

If the cars go faster, they are harder to handle. One should see more the skill differance between drivers.

Capharol
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Capharol » Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:57 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:20 pm
If the cars go faster, they are harder to handle. One should see more the skill differance between drivers.
I think that is wrong, because the team finds a way to make the car suiteable for the speed demanded (aero-deparment)
you're a F1-Driver because you can handle high speed cars anyway, the exceptional drivers show how to handle tyres, how to overtake, how to position your car, being able to "read" (together with the team, engineers etc.) what your opponent is upto, where is his weakness, etc.

so i don't think faster cars demands that much more skill as they already have, because as said, a F1 driver is generaly meant to be driving fast
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

Brake Horse Power
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Brake Horse Power » Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:36 pm

The first renderings looked even better. More modern/ futuristic and I liked the shape and integration of the halo better than it is here. But still it looks good.

Smokes
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Smokes » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:22 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:20 pm
If the cars go faster, they are harder to handle. One should see more the skill differance between drivers.
All race cars are setup to be easy to handle if they are not you have to drive around the problems and makes the lap time slower. What drivers do is keep the tyres on the maximum limit of adhesion.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by NL_Fer » Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:32 pm

Just think about bends like Baggots & Maggots or S curves. If a car can attack them faster, it is also harder for driver, because braking, steering, shifing is all going faster.

Capharol
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Capharol » Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:26 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:32 pm
Just think about bends like Baggots & Maggots or S curves. If a car can attack them faster, it is also harder for driver, because braking, steering, shifing is all going faster.
that makes no big difference or do you believe, if the car has a faster pace, something like 5 sec., they go through those curves that much faster aswell....

no because at some point it ain't possible to go faster through a curve because the law of physics and at some point a person can't take much more g-forces or he might pass out (ok... a bit exaggerated, but you get the point i think)
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

Maplesoup
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by Maplesoup » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:37 am

Brawn was on sky talking about the wind tunnel testing. Said the car they were using isn't the latest model they have and that the latest car is a bit more complex.

So maybe expect to see an evolution of the car model before or when the regulations are due to be voted on

roon
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by roon » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:59 pm

Maplesoup wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:37 am
Said the car they were using isn't the latest model they have and that the latest car is a bit more complex.
Was the work the FIA did for the 2009 regulations this extensive?

jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by jjn9128 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:55 pm

Nope
#aerogandalf

roon
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by roon » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:22 pm

Do you know what was done in general? I don't remember seeing much media from their studies at that time. I ask because there is a concern of a spec car being developed for '21. This did not happen in 2009 despite the FiA then similarly laying out a general shape for the car. So long as legality boxes of significant size, placement, and freedom remain, we might still expect engineering competition on the chassis and aero side.

One example, the 18" wheels will have much more free space inside of them for devices. Could be a development area, but that will be the FiA's and teams' decision to permit so in the new ruleset.

One thing to note about the wind tunnel model they showed. The suspension arms are in generally the same position. This means the uprights inside wheels are still small and similar in size to those used in the existing 13" wheels.

Also, brake duct inlets are clearly visible, but the outlets are not immediately apparent.

jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post by jjn9128 » Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:43 pm

roon wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:22 pm
Do you know what was done in general? I don't remember seeing much media from their studies at that time. I ask because there is a concern of a spec car being developed for '21. This did not happen in 2009 despite the FiA then similarly laying out a general shape for the car. So long as legality boxes of significant size, placement, and freedom remain, we might still expect engineering competition on the chassis and aero side.

One example, the 18" wheels will have much more free space inside of them for devices. Could be a development area, but that will be the FiA's and teams' decision to permit so in the new ruleset.
The 2009 work was a FOTA project supervised by Symonds, Byrne and Lowe with some aero surfacers from teams giving some time and only took about 6 months from late 2007 with just $250k given to complete. Afaik they only did one wind tunnel test at aerolab (formerly fondmetal if you remember their name on old Minardi and Benetton cars) with a pair of 25% scale model cars and a couple of configurations. The front one even had to be placed ahead of the moving ground if I recall. I have some pics somewhere on my computer but I'll try find the sources and embed later.

The 2021 regs are a joined study between FOM and the FIA with occasional input from teams. The new FOM research team is basically a small f1 team. They have engine/aero/gearbox departments. It's being supervised by Ross Brawn and Pat Symonds. Jason Somerville is the head of an aero group of 5/10 aerodynamicists and cad surfacers. And they're liaising with Nikolas Tombasiz who had a new role created in the FIA to oversee all single seater program's. They started assembling the team in late 2016 just after liberty bought the F1 rights. Then started work by buying the CAD and rights to the Manor 2017 car (the Tombasiz link helped there). So they've almost been 3 years on this project. Initially understanding wakes then developing this car.
#aerogandalf