2021 Aero Thread

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browney
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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It might be noticeable if the cars were slower (that said, the 2017 rules did not make it more enjoyable for me). Also remember how much slower the cars are in race trim than qually.

I would find it more spectacular if the cars had less grip and were more of a handful and the driver's could race each other more.

Potentially if all the single seater formulas lost some aero and became a bit slower, it would also increase safety. I know Indycars are going to have more power in the future.... That series is not safe enough as it is.

The thing that confuses me the most though, is how much people hark back to the past eras of formula One, but can still say that they want the cara to be faster......

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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roon wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:22 pm
This was the '07 test setup - first run with '07 wings. They did a second set of runs without bargeboards, and with the eventual '09 dimension wings and diffuser.
Image
#aerogandalf
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Smokes
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Why do the rules ban multi-car testing. It would help the slower temas to find DF to over take.

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djos
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Smokes wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:54 am
Why do the rules ban multi-car testing. It would help the slower temas to find DF to over take.
Because in the past some big teams have intentionally created dirty wakes to make life hard for other cars.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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strad
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Because in the past some big teams have intentionally created dirty wakes to make life hard for other cars.
They still do.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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hollus
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Link or it never happened ;-)
¡Pontelá, ponselá!

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Teams have never gone out of their way to make their wakes worse for a following car. Now if they find something in development which will make life harder then they're not going to try and improve it. The 2 cars are banned purely because not everyone had a big enough wind tunnel and it's incredibly expensive to build scale models (even in the biggest wind tunnels they'd need to build second, smaller than 60%, models), so it's money saving and equalizing measure.
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"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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browney wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:24 am
I would find it more spectacular if the cars had less grip
I will repeat what I said: Formula 3 cars have far less grip than Formula 1, yet the Formula 3 cars are far from spectacular when they race on wide Grand Prix circuits. They are rather dull actually: https://youtu.be/TK74SRy4QaA?t=1733

Having less grip and being a handful are completely different things. The latter is caused by poor balance and flawed suspension setup. It's possible to have a high grip car that is a handful, or a low grip car that handles beautifully.

Does the low grip of the Formula 3 cause spectacular sliding every where? No, because that is not the fastest way around the track and the drivers know it. Smooth is fast, and all the competitive front running F3 cars are set up to not be a handful, because a well balanced car will generally perform better.

roon
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:40 am
This was the '07 test setup...
jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:43 pm
The 2009 work...
Thank you for these posts. Those pictures are interesting. Is this published info?

jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:11 pm
...
Makes sense. I can't imagine drag and df would ever be supplanted in development. I would think any kind of deterent wake would be way down on a priority list if at all.

JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:05 pm
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I agree. The high g direction changes really are noticeable, for example on long distance views through a corner.

Sliding low-df cars can be dramatic, but it is slower.

OO7
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Ross Brawn has stated that the 2021 regs should allow a chasing car to maintain 90 to 95 percent of its downforce when within 2 car lengths of the car ahead. The direction of the airflow behind the leading will reduce the airspeed of the trailing car as it's essentially a tail wind or has such a component. For the 2021 cars to follow so closely I do wonder if this means the slipstream effect will be vastly reduced. If this is the case overtaking may still be extremely difficult, only the cars will be much closer together.

I also wonder what the figures are for GP2 cars in terms of downforce loss at a distance of two car lengths.
Formerly known as Blaze1

mzso
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Blaze1 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:24 pm
For the 2021 cars to follow so closely I do wonder if this means the slipstream effect will be vastly reduced. If this is the case overtaking may still be extremely difficult, only the cars will be much closer together.
The importance of a big slipstream also diminishes. You take a good few turns get close and just stay close on an exit to a long straight. Some slipstream will always be present.

holeindalip
holeindalip
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Blaze1 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:24 pm
Ross Brawn has stated that the 2021 regs should allow a chasing car to maintain 90 to 95 percent of its downforce when within 2 car lengths of the car ahead. The direction of the airflow behind the leading will reduce the airspeed of the trailing car as it's essentially a tail wind or has such a component. For the 2021 cars to follow so closely I do wonder if this means the slipstream effect will be vastly reduced. If this is the case overtaking may still be extremely difficult, only the cars will be much closer together.

I also wonder what the figures are for GP2 cars in terms of downforce loss at a distance of two car lengths.

Will drs be gone for ‘21 regulations?

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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roon wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:28 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:43 pm
Thank you for these posts. Those pictures are interesting. Is this published info?
As far as I'm aware the results of tests were never officially published outside the teams (FOTA) and the FIA. These are the 2009 wings - note the '08 style endplates, so they were either unaware or disinterested in the outwash concept which came to dominate and was ultimately so detrimental as it evolved.

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holeindalip wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:37 am
Will drs be gone for ‘21 regulations?
It's difficult to know, Brawn has said both that he doesn't want it but also that it is a necessary evil. The wind tunnel model and images released haven't have the actuator pod. We'll see come October when the rules are ratified and published.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:25 am
As far as I'm aware the results of tests were never officially published outside the teams (FOTA) and the FIA. These are the 2009 wings - note the '08 style endplates, so they were either unaware or disinterested in the outwash concept which came to dominate and was ultimately so detrimental as it evolved.
I would say unaware, as Frank Dernie recollects having to lobby repeatedly for an outwash front wing to even be considered by the Toyota aero team. When it was finally added to the CFD test program, Dernie claims the outwash front wing provided the biggest gains seen in the regulations -- he considered it more powerful than the double-deck diffuser. The 2008 front wings tended to operate on the principal of in-wash IIRC.

So it seems the 2009 rules had at least four main flaws:

1. Impact of outwash front wing not considered.
2. Impact of Y250 vortex not considered.
3. Possibility of raking the whole vehicle to drastically increase the diffuser height over the intended height not considered.
4. Possibility of creating a slot to create a double-deck diffuser not considered.

The impact of a narrow rear wing without a beam wing, in hindsight, was also detrimental compared to the current thinking of trying to kick the vehicle's wake up as high as possible.

On the other hand, on the positives, the minimum radius rule has been a roaring success at eliminating most of the winglets previously found over the sidepods, ahead of the rear tyres. =D>

OO7
OO7
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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holeindalip wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:37 am
Blaze1 wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:24 pm
Ross Brawn has stated that the 2021 regs should allow a chasing car to maintain 90 to 95 percent of its downforce when within 2 car lengths of the car ahead. The direction of the airflow behind the leading will reduce the airspeed of the trailing car as it's essentially a tail wind or has such a component. For the 2021 cars to follow so closely I do wonder if this means the slipstream effect will be vastly reduced. If this is the case overtaking may still be extremely difficult, only the cars will be much closer together.

I also wonder what the figures are for GP2 cars in terms of downforce loss at a distance of two car lengths.

Will drs be gone for ‘21 regulations?
I hope not. It'll still be necessary around circuits like Hungary, Singapore, Barcelona, Abu Dhabi, Mexico City and a few others.
Formerly known as Blaze1