2022 Aero Thread

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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I don't think the rules prohibit having a single element near the centre of the car then 4 elements further out to recreate a Y250 type vortex?

There's a stipulation that the COR of the flap must have a pivot between 200-225mm from the car centre plane. So maybe you could have 2 elements then a discontinuity and 4 elements to create that inboard vortex... not sure if there's a benefit to that..
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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:08 pm
But how about the front edge??
The front edge has to hide a planar surface when viewed from below. That's basically at the front edge of the allowable volume.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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subcritical71
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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InsideF1 wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:01 pm
Hi all,

I'm new to forums like this as my previous 15 years of employment prevented me talking much about what I did. However, for the past two years I've been part of the aerodynamic team working within F1 on the 2021 rule set. Today these rules, following consultation with the teams and then unanimous approval by the WMSC, have been released to the wider public and where possible I'd be happy to try and answer any questions you might have about them.

There will always be differences of opinions, especially around something as subjective as aerodynamics but whilst you might not agree with some of what we have done or tried to achieve I won't continue to participate in the face of outright negativity.

In the meantime, ask away...
I'm not much of an Aero guy, but maybe you can convince your Power Unit partner to join here also?! 8)

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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InsideF1 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 7:37 am
...
Was any thought given to going back to a narrower car?

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:14 pm


Take a look at 1:32 minutes, you can clearly see two large vortecies pushing the wake down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epdmatdvSzk

NOTE: You may have to open the video seperately in youtube, as F1 doesn't let you implement the video #-o
Looks to me like the wake is being lifted up by the rear wing, with the side vortices entraining rear tyre wake in to the uplift.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

InsideF1
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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FW17 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:31 am
InsideF1 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:10 am

Our feeling is that teams would maximise the forward tunnel height as this is the only way to get tall powerfull fences. There is an attraction to a flat floor if you can generate your vorticity upstream of it with bargeboards but the potential to do that has been removed.
Wouldn't it be better if most of the fences in the front of the floor were straight channeling air into the tunnel while keeping the outer fences turned outwards to create an outwash to seal the tunnel? With proposed fences all directing air to the outside edge of the floor isn't it a worry the current concept of creating low pressure through reduced flow live on? And this large outflow of air again getting sucked back between the rear wheel and diffuser wall creating a lot of turbulence behind?
Without a strong y250 vortex the inner fences have to have local camber to generate a pressure difference across themselves and thus suction in the tunnel. However, they also create their own vortex. It is not just a matter of channeling air, the fences create this strong underfloor vortex that generates load along the complete tunnel. Straightening the fences would be very detrimental to floor load.

InsideF1
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Steven wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Impressive work base_1000 !

Anyway, I was wondering what is the effect of removing rear wing endplates (more specifically, the part that currently sits on the high pressure side of the rear wing?

Is that just a way to reduce some downforce, and the strength of that vortex at the wingtip, while trying to keep a similar ad-surface on the rear wing? Is it aerodynamically less impacting for the wake than just a long AoA rear wing like in the current regs?
The reasons for this are twofold. Removing the upper part of the endplate sheds the tip vortex lower down which creates a better interaction with crown losses from the rear tyre and helps to narrow the diffuser wake. Secondly, this flow spilling over the edge actually creates a small amount of lift along the edge of the rolled part of the RW tip. This lift is reduced in following and this actually helps increase load on the following car.

InsideF1
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Blackout wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:59 am
Great insight insidef1 and turbo and Jjn etc.
They should have gone even further and standardised 80% of the "floor" and diffuser, atleast for 2021 in order to set everyone on an equal footing, at least at the start of the new regs...
What about the car length/wheelbase and weight? will they try to reduce them?
Its our hope that wheelbases are reduced and thus weight comes down but I imagine it is likely that teams will run max wheel base for both packaging constraints but also to maximise floor load.

InsideF1
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:49 am
Steven wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:46 am
Impressive work base_1000 !

Anyway, I was wondering what is the effect of removing rear wing endplates (more specifically, the part that currently sits on the high pressure side of the rear wing?

Is that just a way to reduce some downforce, and the strength of that vortex at the wingtip, while trying to keep a similar ad-surface on the rear wing? Is it aerodynamically less impacting for the wake than just a long AoA rear wing like in the current regs?
I also have a hard time making sense of that rear wing, it seems really inefficient.
There will no doubt be a lot of spill over on the sides, and that will probably make two quite strong vorticies.
I think I saw in the demo video that they actually push the wake down, maybe thats a way to push down the following car??
Adding the endplates back would give you a good amount of load with little increase in drag, that's why teams run endplates on wings in the first place! However whilst there is some downwards component from the tip vortex the inward component is beneficial to keeping the crown losses inboard and the overall wake narrow and ultimately into the main central upwash channel.

InsideF1
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:02 pm
Does the regulations say anything about serrated front wing planes?? Or does it have to be a constant line on the leading and trailing edge?
There is a minimum normality requirement (put in to stop teams re-creating Y250 structures) which would prevent serrations.

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Blackout
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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InsideF1 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:42 pm
Blackout wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:59 am
Great insight insidef1 and turbo and Jjn etc.
They should have gone even further and standardised 80% of the "floor" and diffuser, atleast for 2021 in order to set everyone on an equal footing, at least at the start of the new regs...
What about the car length/wheelbase and weight? will they try to reduce them?
Its our hope that wheelbases are reduced and thus weight comes down but I imagine it is likely that teams will run max wheel base for both packaging constraints but also to maximise floor load.
Yes. And it looks like wheelbase wont be reduced by much: in 2021 it must not exceed 3600mm, but 2019 cars are already quite close to that number (ranging from 3620 to 3690 roughly)

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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With regard to the wheel covers. It seems they rotate with the wheels, have no holes other than for the wheel nut, and seal to the wheel rim - does this mean brake cooling is being forced to exit inboard? I recall the purpose of the last wheel covers was to enhance that outwash using the brake duct flow.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

InsideF1
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:11 pm
I don't think the rules prohibit having a single element near the centre of the car then 4 elements further out to recreate a Y250 type vortex?

There's a stipulation that the COR of the flap must have a pivot between 200-225mm from the car centre plane. So maybe you could have 2 elements then a discontinuity and 4 elements to create that inboard vortex... not sure if there's a benefit to that..
From Art 3

Furthermore, when considering the entire profiles, the following conditions apply:
f. The normal to any point of the profiles surface must not subtend an angle greater than 25° to a vertical plane that is normal to RS-FW-SECTION.


This rule prevents you having an exposed inner edge to the profile. The inner shedding edge would subtend an angle greater than 25 degrees to the reference section. The adjustable portion of the wing is defined after the profiles themselves so the profiles need to be legal before you add the adjuster elements.

InsideF1
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:19 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:14 pm


Take a look at 1:32 minutes, you can clearly see two large vortecies pushing the wake down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epdmatdvSzk

NOTE: You may have to open the video seperately in youtube, as F1 doesn't let you implement the video #-o
Looks to me like the wake is being lifted up by the rear wing, with the side vortices entraining rear tyre wake in to the uplift.
Exactly this.

InsideF1
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Blackout wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:46 pm
InsideF1 wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:42 pm
Blackout wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:59 am
Great insight insidef1 and turbo and Jjn etc.
They should have gone even further and standardised 80% of the "floor" and diffuser, atleast for 2021 in order to set everyone on an equal footing, at least at the start of the new regs...
What about the car length/wheelbase and weight? will they try to reduce them?
Its our hope that wheelbases are reduced and thus weight comes down but I imagine it is likely that teams will run max wheel base for both packaging constraints but also to maximise floor load.
Yes. And it looks like wheelbase wont be reduced by much: in 2021 it must not exceed 3600mm, but 2019 cars are already quite close to that number (ranging from 3620 to 3690 roughly)
Correct, although I think your upper limit is quite conservative.