2021 Aero Thread

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
User avatar
Cuky
63
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:41 pm
Location: Rab, Croatia

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

MatsNorway wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:19 am
strad wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:25 am
I sure hate to dispute the aero experts but while watching practice 1 today it sure looked like the barge boards pushed the spray outwards. Some down, some up but mostly out to the sides.?.? :?
Have people claimed anything else?

When Renault mounted the exhaust in the front it too went to the sides. By running the air out to the sides you make the floor work better as it gets to work harder trying to suck air back in under. Same but different to blown diffuser where the air gets blown out of it faster.
I thought that "wanting to push air out" came out because engineers found that when they push dirty air that comes from front wing and tires outboard what is left for floor to work with is clean(er) air coming from the center of the front wing and under the nose. Basically, they have less air to work with, but it is much more predictable at what it is going to do so it is easier to get a stable setup with good downforce. Downside being that all that dirty air is now thrown so wide that space in which following car has nice clean air is much smaller.

As for the bold part, isn't sucking the air back under actually what they don't want and why they try to produce so much vortices that seal the floor so to prevent as much air leaking in as possible. That is what skirts used to do in late 70's and early 80's until they were banned.

User avatar
jjn9128
306
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

MatsNorway wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:19 am
strad wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:25 am
I sure hate to dispute the aero experts but while watching practice 1 today it sure looked like the barge boards pushed the spray outwards. Some down, some up but mostly out to the sides.?.? :?
Have people claimed anything else?
Okay this explains more succinctly than I could - maybe you'll believe it as it's from an F1 source - Ogawa et al from Honda, and yes it's from a paper from 2008 but the function of the bargeboard hasn't changed.
5.1 Barge Board Longitudinal Vortex Control
The barge board (Fig. 14) functions to generate a downwash in front of the floor of the vehicle by controlling the longitudinal vortices it produces. The shape of the barge board varies between teams, but its role in each case is generally identical.

The cambered barge board produces upper and lower tip vortices (Fig. 15). Directly behind the barge board, the flow induced between the vortices is directed outboard of the vehicle. As it moves downstream, the upper vortex moves outboard and downwards by the lower vortex, the vanes, the suspension, the side pods, and other parts. The lower vortex proceeds downstream, increasing in intensity as it induced longitudinal vortices at the vertical fence and the WW. Because of this, and also due to ground effects, the lower vortex, shed from the barge board, remains in the same YZ position as was shed from the barge board. In this way, a displacement in the Y direction is produced in the upper and lower vortices, and the flow induced between the vortices is directed downwards. This is a downwash produced by the barge board longitudinal vortices. The downwash increases the angle of attack towards the underfloor, and increases suction at the leading edge of the floor. In addition, while the effect is small, downforce is also increased by the suction of the lower vortex itself that flows under the floor of the vehicle. However, excess suction at the leading edge of the floor and total pressure loss at the center of the lower vortex can promote growth of the boundary layer on the floor and result in a decrease in diffuser performance. Because of this, the sequence of aero parts to be optimized and setting priorities in optimization are important issues.

The barge board does not produce any other effects as significant as the downwash effect produced by the longitudinal vortices, but it does play another role. Figure 16 shows a comparison of streamlines with and without the barge board. The outward flow created by the barge board pushes the separation wake of the leading edge of the inboards lower section of the front tire outwards, helping to prevent a decrease in diffuser performance. However, very little change is observed in the large separation flow at the back of the tires whether or not a barge board is used.
As I said the primary function of the bargeboard is to create downwash in front of the floor. Not that there are not secondary or tertiary functions like outwash or shedding a vortex which runs streamwise along the underbody.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

I can't find a quote but I kind of remember Ross Brawn explaining how the barge boards are part of the reason there is so much outwash and how reducing that outwash should help make the wake zone narrower in the first place for the following car.
¡Puxa Esportin!

User avatar
jjn9128
306
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

hollus wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:10 pm
I can't find a quote but I kind of remember Ross Brawn explaining how the barge boards are part of the reason there is so much outwash and how reducing that outwash should help make the wake zone narrower in the first place for the following car.
They want to avoid any outwashing of air with the new concept - no traditional front wing endplates, no bargeboards, brake cooling exiting inwards...etc
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

User avatar
strad
268
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

hollus wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:10 pm
I can't find a quote but I kind of remember Ross Brawn explaining how the barge boards are part of the reason there is so much outwash and how reducing that outwash should help make the wake zone narrower in the first place for the following car.
Thanks Hollus
I am certain there is truth in what jjn9128 said as well.
tertiary functions … I like that
A little of both I think :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

User avatar
godlameroso
378
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

Next year may be the closest most fiercely contested season we've had in ages. It seems madness to change things at this point.

If next year is a last race title decider between 3 or more drivers, then 2021 may be worse from a racing standpoint with bigger gaps than 2020.

If the wake field is narrower it will help with side by side racing, but it won't do much for directly following. There is a balance between drag and downforce lost that allows someone to follow. The following car will always lose downforce. Making overtaking easier isn't the answer, closer racing is.

The second half of this season has been decided by razor thin margins. That is good racing, and we did it with these cars.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

FPV GTHO
FPV GTHO
8
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:57 am

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:55 pm
Next year may be the closest most fiercely contested season we've had in ages. It seems madness to change things at this point.

If next year is a last race title decider between 3 or more drivers, then 2021 may be worse from a racing standpoint with bigger gaps than 2020.

If the wake field is narrower it will help with side by side racing, but it won't do much for directly following. There is a balance between drag and downforce lost that allows someone to follow. The following car will always lose downforce. Making overtaking easier isn't the answer, closer racing is.

The second half of this season has been decided by razor thin margins. That is good racing, and we did it with these cars.
I think however the competitive picture in 2020 turns out, there's going to be something artificial about it with such a big change following. Every team will be splitting their resources differently. The current top 3 may still be a second a lap faster than Renault and McLaren, but have that gap halved by the end of the year if they decide to switch focus earlier. Equally you could see McLaren and Renault clear of the midfield but finish the year out of the points by making the same decision.

User avatar
godlameroso
378
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

FPV GTHO wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:32 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:55 pm
Next year may be the closest most fiercely contested season we've had in ages. It seems madness to change things at this point.

If next year is a last race title decider between 3 or more drivers, then 2021 may be worse from a racing standpoint with bigger gaps than 2020.

If the wake field is narrower it will help with side by side racing, but it won't do much for directly following. There is a balance between drag and downforce lost that allows someone to follow. The following car will always lose downforce. Making overtaking easier isn't the answer, closer racing is.

The second half of this season has been decided by razor thin margins. That is good racing, and we did it with these cars.
I think however the competitive picture in 2020 turns out, there's going to be something artificial about it with such a big change following. Every team will be splitting their resources differently. The current top 3 may still be a second a lap faster than Renault and McLaren, but have that gap halved by the end of the year if they decide to switch focus earlier. Equally you could see McLaren and Renault clear of the midfield but finish the year out of the points by making the same decision.
Next year's cars are just evolutions of this year and most teams will abandon development of 2020 by Silverstone latest. Maybe engine development continues, but there will be no point to developing the chassis in any significant manner, as nothing will carry over.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
588
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:49 am

Next year's cars are just evolutions of this year and most teams will abandon development of 2020 by Silverstone latest. Maybe engine development continues, but there will be no point to developing the chassis in any significant manner, as nothing will carry over.
That rather depends on the championship standings, however. If a team is close to two others, development will be necessary in order to maximise points and thus prize money. If a team is in "clear air" with no tohers close by, then they can afford to focus more on 2021.

Development is about the current year. Sure, you can learn things and carry them over, but the bits on the car are the current bits on the current car for the current season.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
588
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

jjn9128 wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 12:21 pm


Okay this explains more succinctly than I could - maybe you'll believe it as it's from an F1 source - Ogawa et al from Honda, and yes it's from a paper from 2008 but the function of the bargeboard hasn't changed.
5.1 Barge Board Longitudinal Vortex Control
The barge board (Fig. 14) functions to generate a downwash in front of the floor of the vehicle by controlling the longitudinal vortices it produces. The shape of the barge board varies between teams, but its role in each case is generally identical.
Do you have a link for that paper or the name of it so we can search for it? It sounds interesting.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
jjn9128
306
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:53 am
Do you have a link for that paper or the name of it so we can search for it? It sounds interesting.
Ogawa et al, "Aerodynamics Analysis of Formula One Vehicles", there's also "Development Methodologies for Formula One Aerodynamics"
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
588
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:00 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:53 am
Do you have a link for that paper or the name of it so we can search for it? It sounds interesting.
Ogawa et al, "Aerodynamics Analysis of Formula One Vehicles", there's also "Development Methodologies for Formula One Aerodynamics"
Thank you. Found it. =D>
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
jjn9128
306
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:32 pm
Thank you. Found it. =D>
There's also Nakagawa "Typical Velocity Fields and Vortical Structures Around a Formula One Car, based on Experimental Investigations using Particle Image Velocimetry" if you want a really in depth look at bargeboard and Y250 vortices.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

User avatar
godlameroso
378
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:48 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:49 am

Next year's cars are just evolutions of this year and most teams will abandon development of 2020 by Silverstone latest. Maybe engine development continues, but there will be no point to developing the chassis in any significant manner, as nothing will carry over.
That rather depends on the championship standings, however. If a team is close to two others, development will be necessary in order to maximise points and thus prize money. If a team is in "clear air" with no tohers close by, then they can afford to focus more on 2021.

Development is about the current year. Sure, you can learn things and carry them over, but the bits on the car are the current bits on the current car for the current season.
There are also lead times to take into consideration, some upgrades can take months to develop and implement. Silverstone packages usually start entering production at the start of the European leg of the season, these packages are built off data from the first 4 fly away races, and also in part by the updated package teams bring to Spain. The Spain package enters production as soon as winter testing is over, with some teams introducing their package a race later at Monaco.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

User avatar
FW17
228
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:56 am

Re: 2021 Aero Thread

Post

Any reason why FIA did not introduce the suspension and tyre rule for a year prior (2020) than the aero rules?