2022 Aero Thread

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jjn9128
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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jacobianminkowski wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:43 am
does the nose have to go out beyond the wing like that?
Yes and no. It is compelled to go beyond 1150mm ahead of the front axle line (the picture is ~1350mm which is to the maximum overhang). The front wings apex has to be between 1320mm and 1350mm. If you move the nose tip back it would expose the mainplane which is only really an advantage of you keep the whole of the bottom surface free.

Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:08 am
When viewed like that it makes me wonder why they do not put a limit on front overhang, it would naturally limit the front wing aero & the front floor aero as the nose structure (and therefore the forward chassis structure would need to be lower - particularly as the nose height is mandated).
The increase in height of the tyres is ridiculous!!
There are limits on the overhang (as above) they're just longer than 2021. The nose in 2021 has to be at least 1075mm long up to 1200mm long, everyone just runs the shortest they can, while 2022 is 1150-1359mm. So I admit it is shortest possible 2021 nose vs longest possible 2022, but I think these are probably about as long as they will be (give or take 20-25mm).

The tyres are ridiculous. Bigger even than Le Mans. The teams didn't want really low profile so they bulked up the sidewall, typical F1 "compromise".
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

Latios
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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Hi IJN,
In tech regulation doc, front wing profile is no more than 4 parts, why in your picure FW is just 3 parts?

Latios
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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And also, in regulation doc I cannot find the plate above front wheel, do I miss something?

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jjn9128
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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Latios wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:04 am
Hi IJN,
In tech regulation doc, front wing profile is no more than 4 parts, why in your picure FW is just 3 parts?
The front wing has to be 3 or 4 element. We chose 3 because it's fewer elements to tweak/optimise. Each wing has 3-5 planes across the span where chord, leading edge thickness, camber (set by leading and trailing edge angles), trailing edge fishtail, trailing edge thickness, slot gap, slot overlap, element incidence, among other parameters are set for each element. Another element is all of those parameters 3-5 times across the wing.

Latios wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:15 am
And also, in regulation doc I cannot find the plate above front wheel, do I miss something?
Nope that part is not freely available. We had to make it from the pictures released of the wind tunnel model and a bit of experience. The regs document is also missing, the actual cockpit entry template, the wheel covers, the rear wheel winglets and vane, the halo, side impact structures, and the plank. Among other things.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

Zynerji
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:28 pm
Working on some CAD (as ever) for CFD which may never see the light of day. Thought I'd share a visual representation of how much longer the noses on the 2022 cars are than 2019-21, and how much bigger the 2022 tyres are. It's rather shocking when seen side-by-side.

https://db3pap006files.storage.live.com ... pmode=none

https://db3pap006files.storage.live.com ... pmode=none
That new front wing is begging for a 150mm wide Catfish bridge from nose to endplate... 🥲🥲

Latios
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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What's your "we", a F1 team?
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:29 pm
Latios wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:04 am
Hi IJN,
In tech regulation doc, front wing profile is no more than 4 parts, why in your picure FW is just 3 parts?
The front wing has to be 3 or 4 element. We chose 3 because it's fewer elements to tweak/optimise. Each wing has 3-5 planes across the span where chord, leading edge thickness, camber (set by leading and trailing edge angles), trailing edge fishtail, trailing edge thickness, slot gap, slot overlap, element incidence, among other parameters are set for each element. Another element is all of those parameters 3-5 times across the wing.

Latios wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 10:15 am
And also, in regulation doc I cannot find the plate above front wheel, do I miss something?
Nope that part is not freely available. We had to make it from the pictures released of the wind tunnel model and a bit of experience. The regs document is also missing, the actual cockpit entry template, the wheel covers, the rear wheel winglets and vane, the halo, side impact structures, and the plank. Among other things.

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Thunder
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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Latios wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:32 am
What's your "we", a F1 team?
F1 Technical Tech Team Extraordinaire. :D
turbof1 wrote: YOU SHALL NOT......STALLLLL!!!
#aerogollum

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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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Brilliant work as always you guys.

Do you expect the lower rear wishbones will cause much of a blockage to airflow over the diffuser? I wonder if there'll be some interference given the upper surface of the diffuser appears to be steeper and closer to the lower wishbones than in 2021, while the wishbones will be at a relatively shallow AoA.

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jjn9128
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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MIKEY_! wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:16 am
Brilliant work as always you guys.

Do you expect the lower rear wishbones will cause much of a blockage to airflow over the diffuser? I wonder if there'll be some interference given the upper surface of the diffuser appears to be steeper and closer to the lower wishbones than in 2021, while the wishbones will be at a relatively shallow AoA.
Thanks!

Everything on an f1 car compromises something else. The diffuser isn't particularly steeper just bigger, ~1m long vs 0.525m and <0.3m tall vs 0.2m. That said I don't see it being a bigger issue than now. The wishbones can be angled up to 10deg (only nose down at the front, nose up or down at the rear) which helps a bit.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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MIKEY_!
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:43 am
MIKEY_! wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:16 am
Brilliant work as always you guys.

Do you expect the lower rear wishbones will cause much of a blockage to airflow over the diffuser? I wonder if there'll be some interference given the upper surface of the diffuser appears to be steeper and closer to the lower wishbones than in 2021, while the wishbones will be at a relatively shallow AoA.
Thanks!

Everything on an f1 car compromises something else. The diffuser isn't particularly steeper just bigger, ~1m long vs 0.525m and <0.3m tall vs 0.2m. That said I don't see it being a bigger issue than now. The wishbones can be angled up to 10deg (only nose down at the front, nose up or down at the rear) which helps a bit.
I didn't realise they had as much freedom as 10 degrees, that will make a big difference. The blockage may not be massive but its enough under the current regs for Mercedes to develop their wacky lower wishbone - or at least that was their explanation for that design.

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jjn9128
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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MIKEY_! wrote:
Sat Feb 06, 2021 8:03 am
I didn't realise they had as much freedom as 10 degrees, that will make a big difference. The blockage may not be massive but its enough under the current regs for Mercedes to develop their wacky lower wishbone - or at least that was their explanation for that design.
It's a case of every little helps. The Merc rear suspension isn't what is giving them 1s advantage but is part of the whole.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:57 am
The tyres are ridiculous. Bigger even than Le Mans. The teams didn't want really low profile so they bulked up the sidewall, typical F1 "compromise".
1.5 tonne touring car with 680mm 18" tyre, F1 with 725mm 18" tyre. Ridiculous. #-o

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jjn9128
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JordanMugen wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:02 am
jjn9128 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:57 am
The tyres are ridiculous. Bigger even than Le Mans. The teams didn't want really low profile so they bulked up the sidewall, typical F1 "compromise".
1.5 tonne touring car with 680mm 18" tyre, F1 with 725mm 18" tyre. Ridiculous. #-o
I think Le Mans Prototypes are more similar to F1 in terms of peak power and downforce, so the stresses on the tyre, they use 710mm diameter tyres. Formula E are 640/680mm front/rear for a single seater comparison. I get it's probably less ideal (not a tyre engineer) to have a really short sidewall, but making the tyres bigger isn't the right way to go. It also defeats the purpose of the short/stiff sidewall to stop big teams having an advantage in CFD/wind tunnel testing.

As they're covering them anyway they could have gone with a 15"/16" wheel with an 18" cover to fake it, most fans would be none the wiser.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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wb92
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Re: 2022 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:24 pm

I think Le Mans Prototypes are more similar to F1 in terms of peak power and downforce, so the stresses on the tyre, they use 710mm diameter tyres. Formula E are 640/680mm front/rear for a single seater comparison. I get it's probably less ideal (not a tyre engineer) to have a really short sidewall, but making the tyres bigger isn't the right way to go. It also defeats the purpose of the short/stiff sidewall to stop big teams having an advantage in CFD/wind tunnel testing.

As they're covering them anyway they could have gone with a 15"/16" wheel with an 18" cover to fake it, most fans would be none the wiser.
I would tell that in terms of aerodynamics LMP1 have around 70-80% of F1 downforce levels. With LMH... percentage will be lower, as these cars are defined to have slower laptimes than LMP. I also would correct peak power levels, definitely average power per lap will be lower, especially if it comes to non-hybrid cars.

I agree that tyres for F1 2022 season are tremendous. I wonder if teams will have problem with touching of rear wing endplate, as everything can be super close to each other on low rear ride heights.
MVRC - WBRacing

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jjn9128
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Another new release of the 2022 rules was on 21 Feb, finally they've defined the plank. Also more small differences around the car :roll: It's annoying to keep on top of.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica