No more copying in F1

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Zynerji
111
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: No more copying in F1

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Just_a_fan wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 23:42
Zynerji wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 23:14
Big Tea wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 23:06


So a team puts a new 'device' on the car, and another team brings one out of the back room they had 'months ago'?

It may not have worked, but they had it and it is no longer available.

You could walk around the grid and tick off a dozen things that are 'copies', even if the designer had never seen them because they were being tested at the same time.

They just as well allow patents.
And I'd also say that the entire field would have been behind Alpha Romeo with their outwash wings.

F1 has been losing me for years. Between this political nonsense and these rules, 2020 has just about put it to bed for me.
That would be Brawn GP then. They had the outwash front wing in 2009.
I'm rather sure that BGP ran NOTHING like what the current front wings look like... :roll:

joshuagore
0
Joined: 12 Feb 2010, 04:01

Re: No more copying in F1

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The use of three-dimensional cameras, software to create design data from images and photographs, surface scanning of parts and photogrammatery – software which converts image data into models – will all be banned.
So instead of watching races I will just spend my time creating 3d surface models of all cars based around provided images then release said 3d. Sell rights to said private database, fund privately owned photogrammetry/laser scan equipment, stealth it in camera gear, show up to races, capture more data, release more accurate 3d, rinse and repeat. Cat's out of the bag FIA, infact the tech is in your next cell phones you bone heads. Get with it, FIA rules force a singularity after decades of competition towards a single goal, if they are too dumb to realize this is a problem they created, their new rules will certainly do a poor job fixing it. We have intellectual property laws, if it is that novel and that valuable you will keep it a trade secret before filing and can use real courts to pursue theft. If teams are worried patent drawings will give up secrets well they can use the courts to determine who is infringing and not a governing body whos goals are not justice but profit and sport. If a team wants to invest billions to dominate, they should also be investing hundreds of thousands to protect their assets and not a weak ass governing body to manipulate future competition. Also mercedes should be for this, as anything worth winning is worth winning against the best competition, otherwise their championships look more like domination through regulation and not the pure sporting and technological achievement it really is.

maxxer
1
Joined: 13 May 2013, 12:01

Re: No more copying in F1

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If you read Adrian Newey book you will see Ferrari tried to copy alot of stuff over the decades and when they didn't get it working they would just protest against it :-)

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Mclarensenna
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Joined: 15 Oct 2018, 02:49

Re: No more copying in F1

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Copying has been around since of the dawn of time. Even in my era at school when we had to do an essay what did we all do. Go to the library, grab an encyclopedia copy as much as you can without making it obvious, use maybe 1-5 sources, add your own twist and viola A+.

But if you used just 1 source, copied it word for word and handed it in, chances are you would get caught, fail and be in trouble. There was always a fine line between the 2.

All F1 teams copy parts and ideas up and down the grid. But when Racing point copied Mercedes homework, word for word it raised a few eyebrows and so it should.

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Phil
66
Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22
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Re: No more copying in F1

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I thought they wanted closer racing, not the opposite?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

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Sieper
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Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: No more copying in F1

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This thread makes me scratch my head.

It is not not allowed to copy another team. It is just not allowed to have the exact same car and use an excuse to defend how that is possible.

F.e. Mclaren and Red Bull now having a thin nose like mercedes is not prohibited, they just have to engineer it themselves. Not have the cad data in the inbox of their engineering team. Redbull now have a frontwing with holes, be sure the other teams with budget will engineer their own version and test it pretty soon. That is Totally allowed. What is not allowed is AlphaTauri now turning up with it in the exact same way as redbull and then saying they 3d scanned it. There are no cats in bags. It is just a excuse for cad sharing.

Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: No more copying in F1

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Zynerji wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 00:01
Just_a_fan wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 23:42
Zynerji wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 23:14


And I'd also say that the entire field would have been behind Alpha Romeo with their outwash wings.

F1 has been losing me for years. Between this political nonsense and these rules, 2020 has just about put it to bed for me.
That would be Brawn GP then. They had the outwash front wing in 2009.
I'm rather sure that BGP ran NOTHING like what the current front wings look like... :roll:
Brawn were the first to run an outwash front wing. That's just simple fact. When everyone was messing around arguing about double diffusers, Brawn himself even stated in interviews that the teams were looking at the wrong end of the car. Sure, Sauber along with most teams had a bit of outwash but they had nothing like what the Brawn was running.

You can see how the other teams caught up as they also developed the front wing outwash effect in the early season. By mid-season, Brawn had been caught and we had Button on the radio shouting "how can this car have become so bad?"
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Zynerji
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Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: No more copying in F1

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Just_a_fan wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 10:41
Zynerji wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 00:01
Just_a_fan wrote:
09 Oct 2020, 23:42

That would be Brawn GP then. They had the outwash front wing in 2009.
I'm rather sure that BGP ran NOTHING like what the current front wings look like... :roll:
Brawn were the first to run an outwash front wing. That's just simple fact. When everyone was messing around arguing about double diffusers, Brawn himself even stated in interviews that the teams were looking at the wrong end of the car. Sure, Sauber along with most teams had a bit of outwash but they had nothing like what the Brawn was running.

You can see how the other teams caught up as they also developed the front wing outwash effect in the early season. By mid-season, Brawn had been caught and we had Button on the radio shouting "how can this car have become so bad?"
Compared to the current designs (which I clearly stated was the Alpha Romeo design), the Brawn GP isn't even close... BGP had outwash endplates, the AR design has twisted outwash cascades. You know, the now uncopyable aero surfaces...

Sometimes, I think you purposefully misinterpret post on this forum just to appear relevant...🙄🙄🙄

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jjn9128
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Joined: 02 May 2017, 23:53

Re: No more copying in F1

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Sieper wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 10:40
This thread makes me scratch my head.

It is not not allowed to copy another team. It is just not allowed to have the exact same car and use an excuse to defend how that is possible.

F.e. Mclaren and Red Bull now having a thin nose like mercedes is not prohibited, they just have to engineer it themselves. Not have the cad data in the inbox of their engineering team. Redbull now have a frontwing with holes, be sure the other teams with budget will engineer their own version and test it pretty soon. That is Totally allowed. What is not allowed is AlphaTauri now turning up with it in the exact same way as redbull and then saying they 3d scanned it. There are no cats in bags. It is just a excuse for cad sharing.
It's already illegal to receive CAD data from a rival team (of non-listed parts), this new rule is about reverse engineering parts.
The World Motor Sport Council approved changes to the 2021 Technical Regulations that will prevent the extensive use of reverse engineering of rival designs for the design of a car’s aerodynamic surfaces.
This is really hard to judge, because where is the line? If a bargeboard looks similar? Front wing? Nose cone? Engine air intake? With the 2022 rules basically reducing the things teams can do to small detail changes how are they going police it? They're getting teams CAD data so what % difference on surfaces is going to be acceptable?!

Dumb rule to fix a non-problem.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: No more copying in F1

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Mclarensenna wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 01:20
Copying has been around since of the dawn of time. Even in my era at school when we had to do an essay what did we all do. Go to the library, grab an encyclopedia copy as much as you can without making it obvious, use maybe 1-5 sources, add your own twist and viola A+.

But if you used just 1 source, copied it word for word and handed it in, chances are you would get caught, fail and be in trouble. There was always a fine line between the 2.

All F1 teams copy parts and ideas up and down the grid. But when Racing point copied Mercedes homework, word for word it raised a few eyebrows and so it should.
Copying a persons work is called plagiarism.

Copying lots of peoples work is caller research
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Mclarensenna
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Joined: 15 Oct 2018, 02:49

Re: No more copying in F1

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Big Tea wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 13:59
Mclarensenna wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 01:20
Copying has been around since of the dawn of time. Even in my era at school when we had to do an essay what did we all do. Go to the library, grab an encyclopedia copy as much as you can without making it obvious, use maybe 1-5 sources, add your own twist and viola A+.

But if you used just 1 source, copied it word for word and handed it in, chances are you would get caught, fail and be in trouble. There was always a fine line between the 2.

All F1 teams copy parts and ideas up and down the grid. But when Racing point copied Mercedes homework, word for word it raised a few eyebrows and so it should.
Copying a persons work is called plagiarism.

Copying lots of peoples work is caller research
Hahahaha. well said

Just_a_fan
591
Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: No more copying in F1

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Zynerji wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 11:52


Sometimes, I think you purposefully misinterpret post on this forum just to appear relevant...🙄🙄🙄
I see you're resorting to ad hominem again. :roll:
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Zynerji
111
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: No more copying in F1

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Just_a_fan wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 14:50
Zynerji wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 11:52


Sometimes, I think you purposefully misinterpret post on this forum just to appear relevant...🙄🙄🙄
I see you're resorting to ad hominem again. :roll:
Might be best to not read or respond to my posts then. The forum would be better for it, I'm sure.🙄

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Sieper
73
Joined: 14 Mar 2017, 15:19

Re: No more copying in F1

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jjn9128 wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 13:29
Sieper wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 10:40
This thread makes me scratch my head.

It is not not allowed to copy another team. It is just not allowed to have the exact same car and use an excuse to defend how that is possible.

F.e. Mclaren and Red Bull now having a thin nose like mercedes is not prohibited, they just have to engineer it themselves. Not have the cad data in the inbox of their engineering team. Redbull now have a frontwing with holes, be sure the other teams with budget will engineer their own version and test it pretty soon. That is Totally allowed. What is not allowed is AlphaTauri now turning up with it in the exact same way as redbull and then saying they 3d scanned it. There are no cats in bags. It is just a excuse for cad sharing.
It's already illegal to receive CAD data from a rival team (of non-listed parts), this new rule is about reverse engineering parts.
The World Motor Sport Council approved changes to the 2021 Technical Regulations that will prevent the extensive use of reverse engineering of rival designs for the design of a car’s aerodynamic surfaces.
This is really hard to judge, because where is the line? If a bargeboard looks similar? Front wing? Nose cone? Engine air intake? With the 2022 rules basically reducing the things teams can do to small detail changes how are they going police it? They're getting teams CAD data so what % difference on surfaces is going to be acceptable?!

Dumb rule to fix a non-problem.
I know that, but I don’t believe RP copied the car with 3D scanning. That was the excuse. They must have received much more information. But proving that is very hard and disproving that it has been done via 3D scanning alone apparently is equally as hard. But I do believe FIA knows they have been duped, so now they actually outlaw reverse engineering (however hard to word) so that it becomes harder to use as an excuse.

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Zynerji
111
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: No more copying in F1

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My 14yr old daughter does some amazing 3d modeling with just 2 still pictures loaded into Blender.

I'm sure the CATIA gurus can do even better with a similar setup.

3d scanning just speeds up the process IMHO.

The 2022 rules (spec convergence) are going to be fought in court more than on track, because if its close (points wise) the teams will litigate to win.