How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
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Vyssion
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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Uwe wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 23:13
Do you know who is Peter Kampf,if yes,do you agree with his opinion?
What about CFD and aeroelastic deformation ,can CFD predict and solve it?
How do you test your CFD results,with wind tunnel,do you have wind tunnel?
I don't know of him, no.

Aero-elastics is kinda what I would call "one-step-up" from CFD. Technically speaking, what most people call aerodynamics is actually more like "aero-statics". Dynamics implies how something moves -- i.e. how "dynamic" it is -- But aeroelastics, aeroacoustics, aerothermaldyanmics, and even magnetohydrodynamics to an extent just keep adding more and more complexity to things. So yes, CFD can be used for aero-elastics, but it is usually done in a lower order method such as NASTRAN since it requires a coupled method between something structural and aerodyanmics. You can do it in full-fat CFD with a two-way FSI (fluid-structure interface) solver, but it will take a crazy amount of time to solve, since you export aero forces out of a converged solution, parse that into a structural model you have of the object, solve the structural sim, take the deflected shape, re-mesh (or morph the mesh around it), and then solve the CFD of that new shape again -- and that is just one timestep, which then gets repeated several hundred or thousand times in order to give you a "through time data set" of the aero-performance and structural positions of each node.

Testing CFD results can be done either through physical full-scale testing of the components, or wind-tunnel. Both have benefits, both have drawbacks, and both have different challenges associated with them.

Uwe wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 23:13
How can I simplifed geometry, if F1 has sick complex geometry?
How do you draw F1 or any car in CAD if you dont have geometry,dimensions,yout take meter -tape and meassure car?
Meassured car like this will not represent original geometry so result will for sure incorrect..
By simplifying geometry, it depends on the fidelity of the sim you are wanting to do. If you are looking at a full-on "correlate to race track" performance run, then not much can be simplified out, aside from internal CAD geometry that is not exposed to airflow. Usually this means that the cell count is somewhere around the 200,000,000 mark. However, if you look at the CFD that I and @jjn9128 do for this website, that is somewhere on the order of 30-60 million cells, and so things like telemetry aeriels, DRS cables, and other kind of "small things" which exist and have an effect on the airflow, but don't really do much to the "overall flow field", can be ignored; since we are only interested in commenting as to how the regulations change the overall flow field vs. previous years.

Modelling an F1 car is not an easy task, as there is just so much that goes into it. But first step is to grab the regulations, create your regulation boxes that parts must fit within, and then begin to surface up shapes that you feel fill those regions and will perform well. Then you run a sim of it, and iterate your design from there.

Uwe wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 23:13
That I am talking all the time.
Perhaps I should have been a little clearer about what I meant by "complexity" in that sentence - given I placed it in quotes for a reason. Both F1 and Aircraft are complex, due to the physics that they are trying to optimise. To the layman, F1 cars have more "stuff", and so more "aero-stuff" is created, but it is all done with the same goal. For example, if you look at the flow-field behind the front left wheel, the tyre wake needs to be well managed, else it ruins the performance of all behind it. So to do that (in previous years) the Y250 vortex, vortices from the endplates, bargeboards, turning vanes, etc. were all designed so that they would exert a "force" on that type wake to shring it, and then twist it up, and then shoot it outward -- i.e. the term "outwash" that you heard a lot of the time, and part of the reason why it was harder to overtake in that outwashed dirty air.

But all those devices have the same goal - that is, to manage the wheel wake, and outwash it. So its a singular goal, and what is required to do it, is create those aero devices.

Uwe wrote:
20 Dec 2020, 23:13
So for working at CFD and get correct results ,I must know aerodynamics science very very well?
Seem's my good mate has answered this already hahahahahaha :lol:
jjn9128 wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 13:19
Only took a few days to get the working cad model.

We're always very upfront that we're just 2 guys (albeit well educated, incredibly intelligent, roguishly good-looking, sexually virile...) working in our free time not a team of 60-100 aerodynamicists going full time.
Aerodynamics is a bit of a "trap" to be honest... It is very easy to get into, particularly as an engineering student at university where you are asked to do tutorials that are already pre-set up for you and quite easy to follow. But 90% of all those who attempt it, make the mistake of trying to run before they have even stood up, let alone walk. There is a hell of a lot of physics and maths involved, and the sky is the limit for how much you can learn. It's just not something you can pick up and slap an F1 car model into, and expect the "magic computer program" to just "handle it" for you.

That isn't to say that you can't learn about aerodynamics or CFD by "doing" it -- it just means that you have to approach it with that mindset; i.e. grab an aerofoil profile from airfoiltools or something, load the points into OnShape (free web CAD program), learn to extrude a straight wing out of it, stick it into a "domain", mesh it, and solve it. From there, just poke things and see what happens or what breaks. For example, what happens if you make the cell size on the surface half as big? What happens when you add prism layers to it? What about twisting the wing up 5°? Or twisting it up 15°? What about sticking more cells behind the wing to pick up what happens to the air after it leaves the wing surface?

It requires a lot practice and just plain old trial-and-error; and I can tell you from experience, that I can very quickly look at a model and tell whether the user just googled "how to CFD" vs. someone who actually knows what they're doing. There's also just a little bit of "I just know how air moves" that comes into it... knowing what the air is likely to do, meshing to capture that behaviour, designing your surfaces to address that effect (whether positive or negative) etc.

Aerodynamics is always kinda seen as a bit of an "ivory tower" in industry, since it really is very complicated in a lot of ways that intimidate people -- even very smart people -- when you drill right down to what is actually going on at the base level of your simulations and designs.
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nzjrs
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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Your whole post was fantastic and I continue to learn a lot from you and jjn9128.
Vyssion wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 14:16
Aerodynamics is a bit of a "trap" to be honest... It is very easy to get into, particularly as an engineering student at university where you are asked to do tutorials that are already pre-set up for you and quite easy to follow. But 90% of all those who attempt it, make the mistake of trying to run before they have even stood up, let alone walk. There is a hell of a lot of physics and maths involved, and the sky is the limit for how much you can learn. It's just not something you can pick up and slap an F1 car model into, and expect the "magic computer program" to just "handle it" for you.
Begin off topic:

I just want to echo that this meta-problem is IMO not unique to Aerodynamics, what you describe is in my experience also mirrored in electrical engineering, and software engineering (education) too. Its quite a problem for hiring and for teaching.

Students start in their 2nd or 3rd year of a bachelors working already with such high abstractions (because familiarity with the tool/framework is 'what industry wants'), but if they move slightly out of what the abstractions support, then they are suddenly faced with a complexity mountain of all the underlying principles, infrastructure and dependent software, that they have to rapidly climb to be able to solve a problem/do something new.

It's partly that 'they don't understand the fundamentals' but also something like 'degrees have stayed the same length, but the abstractions and complexities of what is needed for a new-hire is always advancing'. This manifests in bad new-hires, or every job advertisement requiring '10 years experience' - which is code for 'Ive survived enough abstraction breakings that I really know how things work'.

Hoffman900
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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The same could be said for any STEM physics based field. Groundwater hydrology is more in my wheelhouse, but same ivory tower applies there as it does for all natural science / engineering disciplines.

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godlameroso
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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LM10 wrote:
19 Dec 2020, 21:10
Talking about CFD at home, a bit offtopic: How is the FIA managing the ban on CFD work for the 2022 car for instance? What if engineers simply start their home computer and do some CFD?
How would they police cloud/distributed computing for that matter. Time for the fans of teams to dedicate their MFLOPS.
Saishū kōnā

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nzjrs
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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Hoffman900 wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:03
The same could be said for any STEM physics based field. Groundwater hydrology is more in my wheelhouse, but same ivory tower applies there as it does for all natural science / engineering disciplines.
I think it is a STEM thing - but I would push back against this being a example of the 'ivory tower'. I think it's the inevitable consequence of increasing complexity and that STEM degree programs have to produce 'employable' - i.e. practical graduates.

The stereotypical example of an 'ivory tower' STEM grad is one that is all theory and no practice. I think the problem is 'too much practice (too little theory and understanding)' and all at the wrong levels of abstraction.

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godlameroso
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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Aero is simple, but simple does not mean easy. A knife is simple, using it, ain't.
Saishū kōnā

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nzjrs
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:16
Aero is simple, but simple does not mean easy. A knife is simple, using it, ain't.
I don't think simple captures the abstraction point I was poorly making. We've spent decades creating elaborate software and tooling to improve design and engineering productivity - and these tools all have to exude simplicity.

Simplicity when one is proficient = productivity.
Simplicity when one is not proficient enough = an illusion

Basically using a massively complex tool is like borrowing from the bank of knowledge to build a complex widget. It can occur that when something unexpected happens, one doesn't have the ability or time to pay the knowledge bank back, so they go bankrupt (the widget is not able to be completed, or it doesn't work etc).

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Zynerji
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:09
LM10 wrote:
19 Dec 2020, 21:10
Talking about CFD at home, a bit offtopic: How is the FIA managing the ban on CFD work for the 2022 car for instance? What if engineers simply start their home computer and do some CFD?
How would they police cloud/distributed computing for that matter. Time for the fans of teams to dedicate their MFLOPS.
It would be PetaFlops in the modern computing age. The newest video cards now have like 30 TeraFlops each.

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godlameroso
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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nzjrs wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:27
godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:16
Aero is simple, but simple does not mean easy. A knife is simple, using it, ain't.
I don't think simple captures the abstraction point I was poorly making. We've spent decades creating elaborate software and tooling to improve design and engineering productivity - and these tools all have to exude simplicity.

Simplicity when one is proficient = productivity.
Simplicity when one is not proficient enough = an illusion

Basically using a massively complex tool is like borrowing from the bank of knowledge to build a complex widget. It can occur that when something unexpected happens, one doesn't have the ability or time to pay the knowledge bank back, so they go bankrupt (the widget is not able to be completed, or it doesn't work etc).
Again simplicity doesn't mean easy. There are some underlying tendencies that are essentially universal. Air behaves in predictable ways, there are no mysteries there. When a fluid moves across a surface it behaves the same way. Object displaces air, displaced air attempts to regain equilibrium because of atmospheric pressure. Despite your experience, air is pretty darn heavy, I'm sure you've seen the broken ruler under the newspaper trick.

Those things are the simple bits of air. Now where it gets tricky is when you try to model reality with computers. The complexity comes because the reality you are describing to the computer is not the whole reality, it is partial, it is limited by your perception. Because perception is partial, it, by it's very nature, fails to account for many variables which are present, but for expediency must be assumed as if they don't exist.

Necessity demands that you wing it, pun intended, then you have to sort out which assumptions you need to add to make your model match up with reality. Then it gets complex, because although air follows the same rules no matter what, it's discovering all those incorrect assumptions you made that refine your knowledge, and in turn your models. The complexity comes from translating your experience into a computer model. Maybe part of the perceived complexity is in part your ego taking a beating, because you're coming face to face with your incorrect assumptions about reality.

You try something, and CFD says it's going to work, then the wind tunnel sort of verifies this, but then you put it on the car and wonder why you're slower now. So investigating why becomes complex, because you have to see what you couldn't see before. You were blinded by assuming something had no influence on something when it did, it's that discovery process that can make aero work seem complex. However air behaves in a predictable way, so if it isn't doing what you want it to do, you have to look at what you're doing wrong, and because there are more wrong answers than right ones, sifting through the wrong ones to find the answer can take a while.
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godlameroso
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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Zynerji wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 19:39
godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:09
LM10 wrote:
19 Dec 2020, 21:10
Talking about CFD at home, a bit offtopic: How is the FIA managing the ban on CFD work for the 2022 car for instance? What if engineers simply start their home computer and do some CFD?
How would they police cloud/distributed computing for that matter. Time for the fans of teams to dedicate their MFLOPS.
It would be PetaFlops in the modern computing age. The newest video cards now have like 30 TeraFlops each.
The shortage of supply is due to miners, these new cards are mining monsters and they're exploding crypto markets to match the demand in case something happens to the dollar. Once these second hand cards start flooding the market it's going to do interesting things to the supply surge that's coming in Q2 to prevent another launch shortage. In short there's going to be oversupply, and prices are going to tank.
Saishū kōnā

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Zynerji
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 20:37
Zynerji wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 19:39
godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:09


How would they police cloud/distributed computing for that matter. Time for the fans of teams to dedicate their MFLOPS.
It would be PetaFlops in the modern computing age. The newest video cards now have like 30 TeraFlops each.
The shortage of supply is due to miners, these new cards are mining monsters and they're exploding crypto markets to match the demand in case something happens to the dollar. Once these second hand cards start flooding the market it's going to do interesting things to the supply surge that's coming in Q2 to prevent another launch shortage. In short there's going to be oversupply, and prices are going to tank.
I used to agree with this, but crypto nodes for Ethereum and BitCoin were both <200,000 meaning of the 20 million cards sold, only a small portion are actually crunching blockchain.

PS. Any C# CFD software can be run on a private Ethereum blockchain using Nethereum. If someone can port over OpenFOAM and it's solvers, we could quickly have a distributed CFD cluster for the forum to use...😏😏😏

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nzjrs
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 20:31
Again simplicity doesn't mean easy.
I am not conflating simplicity with ease. I'm suggesting that all of what you say is correct, but is too often hidden under layers of abstractions such that it can give the user the illusion of proficiency. I gave reasons why I think this as evolved to be this way in my previous post (industry pressure and development of software and tools).

I'll give my example. Take embedded systems electrical engineering. Underneath it all its very simple, the binary switching of signals 1 and 0. But a 10 year old can go and purchase an arduino kit to make a decent network controlled home thermostat. That's made possible because of the level of abstractions built into all the ecosystem of tools and software. If that type of work / thinking extends too much into the education process then the graduate has a false sense of their proficiency and when they need to make something not captured in the examples or abstractions, they have to learn a lot of what is hidden underneath very rapidly.

That is, the actual mismatch between your definitions of "simple" and "easy" and all of what you say about assumtion breaking and ego, is in my opinion, less consequential than the hiding of complexity and subtlety in the software tools and abstractions we work with.

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Vyssion
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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nzjrs wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 16:48
Your whole post was fantastic and I continue to learn a lot from you and jjn9128.
Glad you enjoy what we do mate 🤓 I don't post as much as jjn does, but when I do, I try and make it count 🤔


nzjrs wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 16:48
Vyssion wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 14:16
Aerodynamics is a bit of a "trap" to be honest... It is very easy to get into, particularly as an engineering student at university where you are asked to do tutorials that are already pre-set up for you and quite easy to follow. But 90% of all those who attempt it, make the mistake of trying to run before they have even stood up, let alone walk. There is a hell of a lot of physics and maths involved, and the sky is the limit for how much you can learn. It's just not something you can pick up and slap an F1 car model into, and expect the "magic computer program" to just "handle it" for you.
Begin off topic:

I just want to echo that this meta-problem is IMO not unique to Aerodynamics, what you describe is in my experience also mirrored in electrical engineering, and software engineering (education) too. Its quite a problem for hiring and for teaching.
So, I would agree with you to a point, but still maintain my opinion about aerodynamics. Perhaps it's more prevalent in aerospace, but working across multiple teams has kinda shown me that "most engineers" are capable of following along a technical explanation of something structural, or electrical, or software, or power, or whatever - even at quite technical levels. Again, at least in my experience, aerodynamics just seems to "scare" people off, and when I am explaining things, eyes gloss over quite a lot -- and at the risk of tooting my own horn a little... I do kinda think I'm pretty good at adapting the level of detail to an audience, and teaching people 😇😰 Perhaps it is more the fact that there is this "belief" that it is impossible to understand, and therefore doesn't warrant even trying -- but hey... not gonna lie: I quite enjoy the fact I do the stuff others say is too hard 😜 I have a little kinda "statement" that is used on my professional tags about just this sort of thing hehehe 😏


godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 20:31
nzjrs wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:27
godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:16
Aero is simple, but simple does not mean easy. A knife is simple, using it, ain't.
I don't think simple captures the abstraction point I was poorly making. We've spent decades creating elaborate software and tooling to improve design and engineering productivity - and these tools all have to exude simplicity.

[ . . . ]
Again simplicity doesn't mean easy. There are some underlying tendencies that are essentially universal. Air behaves in predictable ways, there are no mysteries there. When a fluid moves across a surface it behaves the same way. Object displaces air, displaced air attempts to regain equilibrium because of atmospheric pressure. Despite your experience, air is pretty darn heavy, I'm sure you've seen the broken ruler under the newspaper trick.

Those things are the simple bits of air. Now where it gets tricky is when you try to model reality with computers. The complexity comes because the reality you are describing to the computer is not the whole reality, it is partial, it is limited by your perception. Because perception is partial, it, by it's very nature, fails to account for many variables which are present, but for expediency must be assumed as if they don't exist.

[ . . . ]

However air behaves in a predictable way, so if it isn't doing what you want it to do, you have to look at what you're doing wrong, and because there are more wrong answers than right ones, sifting through the wrong ones to find the answer can take a while.
Kinda see both sides here; so to add a little insight here...

The "tricky" part of modelling what air does stems mostly from initial conditions. Depending on what you read, there's this underlying theory that air "cascades" down from larger eddies to smaller eddies in exactly the same way (given absolutely identical initial conditions) until viscosity in the air dampens out the motion, and a little bit of thermal energy is produced. Certainly the LES Sub-gridscale method uses that prediction of identical cascades below a certain turbulence length scale to great effect, but unless I missed some recent paper, I don't think it has been "proven" to be true yet -- but it works for now, so hey... we use it 🤣 What makes turbulence difficult to predict and understand, and even moreso at the very fundamental levels, is the fact that an absolutely microscopic difference in initial conditions can have a disproportionately large effect on that cascade process. Not always, but the potential is there.

Modelling does a really good job at working out what is going on, and for 90+% of what you'd need, what we have does a really good job. However, if we take an example of trying to predict the postition of stall-start on an aerofoil profile... we know that initial conditions play a part (i.e. airspeed, pressure, temperature), as does reynolds number, mach number, strouhal number, geometry / curvature in 3D, turbulence model, advection schemes, laplacian schemes, geometry schemes, transition equations, timestep (or pseudo-timestep) size, differencing schemes (central, upwind, downwind), under-relaxation factors.... the list goes on and on and on... not to mention whether you're using RANS, URANS, DDES, LES, etc. and also the fact that what happens upstream and downstream of it can also have an effect on what you see. Even something not initially obvious, such as using single or double precision, can drastically change what you predict. Not to mention just how "stall" occurs in real life (stall cells..........), and then wondering how that effect is captured.... 🤯🤯🤯🤯🤯 You get the idea.

In short, I'm not really sure if there is a "right answer", so much as the skill of the user is their ability to achieve closer and closer predictions to reality, without sacrificing that very same accuracy when the model is applied to a fair "range" of data points (alpha / beta angles, velocity ranges, etc.) Perhaps I'm here playing semantics, but ehhh... when all's said and done, I think we all broadly are on the same page here 😁
"And here you will stay, Gandalf the Grey, and rest from journeys. For I am Saruman the Wise, Saruman the Ring-maker, Saruman of Many Colours!"

#aerosaruman

"No Bubble, no BoP, no Avenging Crusader.... HERE COMES THE INCARNATION"!!"

Just_a_fan
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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:16
Aero is simple, but simple does not mean easy. A knife is simple, using it, ain't.
A bit like the response to the admonition "get on with it, it isn't rocket science!": rocket science is easy, rocket engineering isn't. 8)
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Re: How accurate is our "cheap" CFD ?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
29 Dec 2020, 17:07
godlameroso wrote:
21 Dec 2020, 17:16
Aero is simple, but simple does not mean easy. A knife is simple, using it, ain't.
A bit like the response to the admonition "get on with it, it isn't rocket science!": rocket science is easy, rocket engineering isn't. 8)
#aerogandalf
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