2009 design concepts

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Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:09 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: 2009 design concepts

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Kubica: "I think that everyone agrees that it's not the most beautiful car but fortunately it looks better from the cockpit. With reduced aerodynamics the chacteristic of the car is totally different, thanks to slick tyres we regained some grip. The car generates more drag nowso it's a bit different on the straight. We are testing here only a couple of basic things as we have to gather as many data as possible".

"I really don't know if we will have any advantage thanks to driving a car with changed aero. There is a lot of time till the first race so I reckon all teams will be ready. We are testing new solutions here, but the new car will be totally different. It's hard to say who will be competitive in 2009, it's going to be a big lottery. I expect bigger gaps between the teams, especially in the beginning"
This is contradictory to what Klein said earlier. He suggested that the cars would be doing 6km/h more at the end of the main straight at Barcelona, which obviously means lower drag. Also, the OWG said that the 2009 cars would have 90% of the drag of 2008 cars.

Any one else got any word on that?
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

enkidu
enkidu
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Joined: Sun May 20, 2007 8:26 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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OMG I must admit the cars look crap... the front wings look like I made them out of wood. Whats happened to F1?

wrigs
wrigs
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Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:17 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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Scotracer wrote:
Kubica: "I think that everyone agrees that it's not the most beautiful car but fortunately it looks better from the cockpit. With reduced aerodynamics the chacteristic of the car is totally different, thanks to slick tyres we regained some grip. The car generates more drag nowso it's a bit different on the straight. We are testing here only a couple of basic things as we have to gather as many data as possible".

"I really don't know if we will have any advantage thanks to driving a car with changed aero. There is a lot of time till the first race so I reckon all teams will be ready. We are testing new solutions here, but the new car will be totally different. It's hard to say who will be competitive in 2009, it's going to be a big lottery. I expect bigger gaps between the teams, especially in the beginning"
This is contradictory to what Klein said earlier. He suggested that the cars would be doing 6km/h more at the end of the main straight at Barcelona, which obviously means lower drag. Also, the OWG said that the 2009 cars would have 90% of the drag of 2008 cars.

Any one else got any word on that?
That is possibly because they are still running what is in essence a F1.08 chassis with some new parts on it. Someone here noted that the diffuser didn't look quite legal for 2009 and that the rear wing had three elements which isn't legal either.
So even though it looks very different from the normal F1.08, it isn't the complete 2009 car.

wesley123
wesley123
239
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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wrigs wrote:
Scotracer wrote:
Kubica: "I think that everyone agrees that it's not the most beautiful car but fortunately it looks better from the cockpit. With reduced aerodynamics the chacteristic of the car is totally different, thanks to slick tyres we regained some grip. The car generates more drag nowso it's a bit different on the straight. We are testing here only a couple of basic things as we have to gather as many data as possible".

"I really don't know if we will have any advantage thanks to driving a car with changed aero. There is a lot of time till the first race so I reckon all teams will be ready. We are testing new solutions here, but the new car will be totally different. It's hard to say who will be competitive in 2009, it's going to be a big lottery. I expect bigger gaps between the teams, especially in the beginning"
This is contradictory to what Klein said earlier. He suggested that the cars would be doing 6km/h more at the end of the main straight at Barcelona, which obviously means lower drag. Also, the OWG said that the 2009 cars would have 90% of the drag of 2008 cars.

Any one else got any word on that?
That is possibly because they are still running what is in essence a F1.08 chassis with some new parts on it. Someone here noted that the diffuser didn't look quite legal for 2009 and that the rear wing had three elements which isn't legal either.
So even though it looks very different from the normal F1.08, it isn't the complete 2009 car.
The car looks legal to me, ever heard of loopholes?

Why should they make a new rear wing now wich isnt even allowed?

The car we see now is an undeveloped F1.09, everything is within the rules on the car, and it would be useless if they change everything on the car only to test it and then they still have to design a tub and redesign all those parts on the car because they dont fit on the new monocoque?

Im telling you, the car BMW is driving now is an undevelopped F1.09.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Conceptual
Conceptual
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Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 2:33 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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[quote="wesley123Im telling you, the car BMW is driving now is an undevelopped F1.09.[/quote]


Like an Alpha release?

D'Leh
D'Leh
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:42 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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wesley123 wrote: The car looks legal to me
But it isn't. There are quite some details which don't comply with 09 regs.

- gills on the left side pod
- a quite big hole on the right side pod
- three-element rear wing
- the diffuser should not have a big mid channel and should only start at the rear wheel center line and should extend to beyond the rear wheels (so it should be visible from the side)

So really, that car is not legal according the rules of 09. But i think it's safe to say BMW knows that. No reason to panic.

edit for pics:
http://www.motorsport-total.com/bilder/ ... 032458.jpg
http://www.motorsport-total.com/bilder/ ... 941804.jpg

Scotracer
Scotracer
3
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:09 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: 2009 design concepts

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Yes that could well be the reason.

I'm still very confused about the 3-element rear-wing. Why would BMW design such a thing if it was illegal? What good would a wing config that is now 5 years defunct be useful in experimental analysis?

I hope we see some thin-nosed cars (ala Mclaren MP4/19B) next year. That BMW looks like a spade's been taped to the front.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

antrock
antrock
2
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:14 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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what if BMW are running 'illegal' 3 element wings because they suspect they can get their proper ones as efficial by the start of the season (and they dont want to show it yet)?

D'Leh
D'Leh
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Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:42 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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Or maybe the 08 diffuser on that car just doesn't work nearly as good as it did with all the turning vanes and barge boards around the splitter?

It's all just assumptions. They'll neither run that diffuser nor that rear wing because they are both not allowed.

wrigs
wrigs
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Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 5:17 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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wesley123 wrote:
wrigs wrote:That is possibly because they are still running what is in essence a F1.08 chassis with some new parts on it. Someone here noted that the diffuser didn't look quite legal for 2009 and that the rear wing had three elements which isn't legal either.
So even though it looks very different from the normal F1.08, it isn't the complete 2009 car.
The car looks legal to me, ever heard of loopholes?

Why should they make a new rear wing now wich isnt even allowed?

The car we see now is an undeveloped F1.09, everything is within the rules on the car, and it would be useless if they change everything on the car only to test it and then they still have to design a tub and redesign all those parts on the car because they dont fit on the new monocoque?

Im telling you, the car BMW is driving now is an undevelopped F1.09.
Look, I'm not a BMW-engineer, but the fact of the matter is that that car is an F1.08 with a lot of new bits on it. It might look a lot different, but underneath the skin that's an F1.08 chassis and that's the main difference. Like someone else said it also has cooling vents, which seems to suggest that BMW doesn't even have their cooling system thought out for 2009 - and to be honest I think there are several other things they haven't thought out regarding 2009 yet.

If BMW had been testing their F1.09 parts on a brand new chassis then trust me we would have seen a lot of headlines about it. It's not an undeveloped F1.09, it's a 2008-2009 hybrid.

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Metar
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Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:35 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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I have a purely hypothetical question: Would it be legal to move the air-intake of the engine to the location of Ferrari's Frankenradiator?

Scotracer
Scotracer
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:09 pm
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland, UK

Re: 2009 design concepts

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Metar wrote:I have a purely hypothetical question: Would it be legal to move the air-intake of the engine to the location of Ferrari's Frankenradiator?
I don't believe so but it wouldn't be advantageous. The air flow in that region doesn't have good characteristics (Reynolds number and pressure) compared to the air intake above the driver. Also, the fluid dynamics of the air intake would have to divert the flow from that position on the right around to the top of the engine, inducing more losses.

Either way, the rollover structure has to remain where it is so the air intake wouldn't reduce this height, by removing it.


So, hypothetically yes I believe they could do it, but it wouldn't be a good idea.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

wesley123
wesley123
239
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: 2009 design concepts

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wrigs wrote:
wesley123 wrote:
wrigs wrote:That is possibly because they are still running what is in essence a F1.08 chassis with some new parts on it. Someone here noted that the diffuser didn't look quite legal for 2009 and that the rear wing had three elements which isn't legal either.
So even though it looks very different from the normal F1.08, it isn't the complete 2009 car.
The car looks legal to me, ever heard of loopholes?

Why should they make a new rear wing now wich isnt even allowed?

The car we see now is an undeveloped F1.09, everything is within the rules on the car, and it would be useless if they change everything on the car only to test it and then they still have to design a tub and redesign all those parts on the car because they dont fit on the new monocoque?

Im telling you, the car BMW is driving now is an undevelopped F1.09.
Look, I'm not a BMW-engineer, but the fact of the matter is that that car is an F1.08 with a lot of new bits on it. It might look a lot different, but underneath the skin that's an F1.08 chassis and that's the main difference. Like someone else said it also has cooling vents, which seems to suggest that BMW doesn't even have their cooling system thought out for 2009 - and to be honest I think there are several other things they haven't thought out regarding 2009 yet.

If BMW had been testing their F1.09 parts on a brand new chassis then trust me we would have seen a lot of headlines about it. It's not an undeveloped F1.09, it's a 2008-2009 hybrid.
Just think about it

Why should BMW develop those parts for their 2008 car? All this has to be redevelopped again to fit on the 2009 tub, that would take the double amount of time thus the idea becomes useless.

Believe me, it is an 'Alpha' F1.09, it wouldnt be sufficient to build parts for the 2009 car when they have to change it all over again to fit the 2009 car.

The nose on the car is totally different and im 100% sure that it wouldnt fit on their 2008 tub, as then you wil get a weird shape on the bottom as the 2008 nose is significantly lower.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

delsando
delsando
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Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:18 am
Location: Fra

Re: 2009 design concepts

Post

Scotracer wrote:
Metar wrote:I have a purely hypothetical question: Would it be legal to move the air-intake of the engine to the location of Ferrari's Frankenradiator?
I don't believe so but it wouldn't be advantageous. The air flow in that region doesn't have good characteristics (Reynolds number and pressure) compared to the air intake above the driver. Also, the fluid dynamics of the air intake would have to divert the flow from that position on the right around to the top of the engine, inducing more losses.

Either way, the rollover structure has to remain where it is so the air intake wouldn't reduce this height, by removing it.


So, hypothetically yes I believe they could do it, but it wouldn't be a good idea.
To shed more light on this,
refer Manchilds intuitive idea of airbox
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5135&start=0&st=0&s ... irbox+idea
"The danger sensation is exciting, the challenge is to find new dangers." Ayrton Senna

smirkoff
smirkoff
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:45 am

Re: 2009 design concepts

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wesley123 wrote: Why should BMW develop those parts for their 2008 car? All this has to be redevelopped again to fit on the 2009 tub, that would take the double amount of time thus the idea becomes useless.

Believe me, it is an 'Alpha' F1.09, it wouldnt be sufficient to build parts for the 2009 car when they have to change it all over again to fit the 2009 car.

The nose on the car is totally different and im 100% sure that it wouldnt fit on their 2008 tub, as then you wil get a weird shape on the bottom as the 2008 nose is significantly lower.
It's a 2008 tub, no question. The higher tip of the test nose gives an impression of a higher tub, but it's really the same. It still have some details that doesn't fit in the new rules. If they want to change everything again for the 2009 car, THEY WILL -that's Formula 1. And those kind of test hacks are relatively easy to do for a well-funded team.