Tales from the moderating garage

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Huntresa
Huntresa
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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Isnt the cars overall performance related to the car thread? Since the car performance is based on the parts on the car.
Last edited by Richard on Wed May 30, 2012 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Form E20 thread

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raymondu999
156
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:31 am

Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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Surely a characteristic of the car (such as it being temperature dependent) should be worthy of a place in the car thread?
Last edited by Richard on Wed May 30, 2012 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: From the E20 thread
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elf341
elf341
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Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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I agree with raymond

In years to come f1technicians may come back to this thread hoping to get an idea of how the E20 performed, and may see lots of shiny pictures of car bits but with no reference as to whether they actually work or not as all performance characteristics of the car have been banished from this thread.
Last edited by Richard on Wed May 30, 2012 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: From the E20 thread

Richard
Richard
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Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: UK

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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I'm happy to consult on a broader view about this. I'll explain my perspective ....

The car threads are meant to be about the specific aero-mech development of a particular car. It's about the stuff that comes out of the factory, not the drivers, or strategy, or lap times. It's about the features of the car before we put the driver in the seat.

As Mx_tifoso says
mx_tifoso wrote:Development facts or bust :)
We have always moved comments about a car's performance (ie with the driver in place) to the race thread if specific to a race or to a team thread if it is more generic. Here are examples of the batch of 16 posts moved from the E20 thread today.

"Qualifying doesn't seem to be the strong point for this car"
"It didn't seem to work with the super soft tyres for some reason..."
"I do agree if the E20 had Fernando or Seb driving they could be leading the WDC and/or WCC."
"Good stability. Long tyre life, Qualifying speed. All the goods. It is arguable the car to have."

With regard to temperature, I can see the merit of a technical post about a specific part on the car overheating such as "Does locating the KERS unit under the radiator like this causing their overheating problems". I'd leave that in a car thread because it is an objective comment about a particular feature.

However, comments about the E20 being generally better in races with warm or cold weather are in my mind a generic discussion rather than commentary on the specific aero-mech features of the vehicle. They belong with the conversation about the overall performance of the team-driver-car combination.

We used to call the car threads "Aero mach development" and that's what I have in mind when I read the car threads, along with the mantra of "if it isn't on the car then it isn't in the thread". MX has his own mantra above. Maybe we should rename the "F1 cars" section to "F1 Car Aero Mech Development" to be explicit about this, although that is a bit too long for a title.

Finally the car threads are unique to this forum, they are precious because of their specific focus on technical or engineering features. I hope we can keep them that way.

I'd appreciate others' thoughts on generic v specific, the weather discussion is a good example to start with.

The ability of a team to get the tyres to temperature is another one that I view as generic unless the post is highlighting a specific feature such as a revised brake duct.

Edit to add - The "driver out of the seat" definition is growing on me

Huntresa
Huntresa
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W03

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mx_tifoso wrote:Race and team comparison discussion has been moved to the Canadian GP discussion. Please avoid general chat in these car threads since they are for specific technical development.

Once again, we were talking about top speed which is related to the DDRS and their f-duct system and the fact that they are not running no cascades which is the topic right now in the thread, so i cant see why it should be moved...
Last edited by Richard on Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: From W03 thread

Huntresa
Huntresa
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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richard_leeds wrote:As MX said - Development facts or bust.

Discussions about illegality moved to team thread.... :arrow: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12213&view=unread#unread
Cant you open a thread about cars overall then? Cause if we cant speak about car parts in the car thread i dont get why its called a car thread... You must be allowed to atleast compare other cars with the same parts or speak about if a part is illegal or not, since you are speaking about a part... im nearly giving up here... sigh
Last edited by Richard on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: From RB8 thread

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: UK

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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It is simple, the car threads are for talking about the actual car itself. If a comment is not about an object on teh car then it shouldn't be in the thread.

Your two examples are both suitable for the car threads:

- "You must be allowed to at least compare other cars with the same parts" - Yes if it is an examination of the part in question
- "Speak about if a part is illegal or not" - Yes if it is an examination of the part in question

However what is not appropriate are:

- RB8 is a faster than McLaren - That lives in the race thread
- Red Bull have been cheating all season - That is about the team

Here's an example of a post that MX and I have recently moved that prompted your comments. This was from the W03 thread but barely mentions Mercedes, let alone the specifics of the car:
clipsy1H wrote:something strange.... DDRS didnt work? or.... super long straight lines but McLaren are faster. DDRS advantage disappeared
Huntresa wrote:
clipsy1H wrote:
beelsebob wrote: McLaren's flexi-front-wing is more powerful than Merc's DDRS?
OK Mclaren but also RB are faster
And this is Friday...
Also from RB8 car thread is a discussion of FIA's administration:
Cuky wrote:so RB is using illegal car for all 6 races so far and yet no penalty is given...
Huntresa wrote:
beelsebob wrote:
Huntresa wrote:
Its hard to give a penalty when they are not actually breaking a written rule but breaking the way FIA sees the rule. They dont want you to use stuff like this for aero effecct but it can ofc be done and is being done by many teams just RB took it one step to far.
They've broken a written rule in at least 5 races so far. The reason no penalty has been given is because the infraction was confirmed too late after the races to be able to penalise them.
This isnt a written rule, only if you mean the one for brake air intake only for cooling, everyone brakes that one not just RB, as i said they just took it one step to far. FIA Could make every car illegal if they wanted going by the spirits of the rules on exhaust and on stuff they dont want to have an aero effect, like the brakeducts etc.
I hope that clarifies how things work on this site. The car threads are for discussing the engineering of the car. The team threads are for how the team operates, and the race threads are discussing how the car-team-driver combination delivers performance on track.

wesley123
wesley123
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Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:55 pm

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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richard_leeds wrote:It is simple, the car threads are for talking about the actual car itself. If a comment is not about an object on teh car then it shouldn't be in the thread.
More and more is getting moved because it is 'not about the car' cant see why the DDRS discussion i nthe W03 thread has to be moved, first of all they are the only team believed to run a DDRS, second of all it was a discussion about the DDRS on the w03.
Huntresa wrote:
mx_tifoso wrote:Race and team comparison discussion has been moved to the Canadian GP discussion. Please avoid general chat in these car threads since they are for specific technical development.

Once again, we were talking about top speed which is related to the DDRS and their f-duct system and the fact that they are not running no cascades which is the topic right now in the thread, so i cant see why it should be moved...
Here it is. Even if it has to be moved the race discussion is sure a good place. Afterall the topic isnt supposed to have discussion about the grand prix. Instead a discussion about a car part is moved there, it completely doesnt fit the topic.
Your two examples are both suitable for the car threads:

- "You must be allowed to at least compare other cars with the same parts" - Yes if it is an examination of the part in question
- "Speak about if a part is illegal or not" - Yes if it is an examination of the part in question
And yet things that fit those examples are moved.

Sure it could be me, but I am having the idea this already overzaleous moderating is getting worse day by day. Why not just close the car development threads? I mean 99% of it is getting moved anyways.
"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender

Huntresa
Huntresa
54
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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wesley123 wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:It is simple, the car threads are for talking about the actual car itself. If a comment is not about an object on teh car then it shouldn't be in the thread.
More and more is getting moved because it is 'not about the car' cant see why the DDRS discussion i nthe W03 thread has to be moved, first of all they are the only team believed to run a DDRS, second of all it was a discussion about the DDRS on the w03.
Huntresa wrote:
mx_tifoso wrote:Race and team comparison discussion has been moved to the Canadian GP discussion. Please avoid general chat in these car threads since they are for specific technical development.

Once again, we were talking about top speed which is related to the DDRS and their f-duct system and the fact that they are not running no cascades which is the topic right now in the thread, so i cant see why it should be moved...
Here it is. Even if it has to be moved the race discussion is sure a good place. Afterall the topic isnt supposed to have discussion about the grand prix. Instead a discussion about a car part is moved there, it completely doesnt fit the topic.
Your two examples are both suitable for the car threads:

- "You must be allowed to at least compare other cars with the same parts" - Yes if it is an examination of the part in question
- "Speak about if a part is illegal or not" - Yes if it is an examination of the part in question
And yet things that fit those examples are moved.

Sure it could be me, but I am having the idea this already overzaleous moderating is getting worse day by day. Why not just close the car development threads? I mean 99% of it is getting moved anyways.

Thank you so its not only me!

Huntresa
Huntresa
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Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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Also your examples there, it says DDRS which is something Merc is the only team to use and it was in the merc thread and me saying Its friday, why cant i say that? I have to answer something to his comment...

Edit: This all feels like nitpicking or w/e its called, i can understand moving stuff when it takes over the thread and derails the entire thread, but nothing you have moved from the threads the current days have been that.

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: UK

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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I agree with you Wesley. Discussion of parts on cars should remain in the car thread, but that wasn't the case in the posts that have been moved.

Looking back at posts that have been moved from car threads to the race we have see 8 posts from F2012 that quote lap and sector times and a couple of comments such as "looking stable in corner x". There is one post from RB8 thread about Vettel and Hamilton's lap times.

Then there are the 5 posts from the W03 thread that Huntresa and you have mentioned. These start with a comparison of Merc and Mclaren sped traps ... "something strange.... DDRS didnt work? or.... super long straight lines but McLaren are faster. DDRS advantage disappeared".

That isn't a discussion of a part on the car, it is comparing speed trap data between two cars, so that's a race topic. Also one can't extrapolate headline times to a specific part on a car. For all we know the two cars in question could have had different tyres, different age of tyres, different fuel loads, or running experimental parts.

To be completely transparent about it, the posts from the W03 thread that were moved to the race thread are:

viewtopic.php?p=350709#p350709
viewtopic.php?p=350711#p350711
viewtopic.php?p=350715#p350715
viewtopic.php?p=350724#p350724
viewtopic.php?p=350729#p350729

ps - There are quite a few members who report posts and send PMs to mods asking us to be even stricter.

Huntresa
Huntresa
54
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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richard_leeds wrote:I agree with you Wesley. Discussion of parts on cars should remain in the car thread, but that wasn't the case in the posts that have been moved.

Looking back at posts that have been moved from car threads to the race we have see 8 posts from F2012 that quote lap and sector times and a couple of comments such as "looking stable in corner x". There is one post from RB8 thread about Vettel and Hamilton's lap times.

Then there are the 5 posts from the W03 thread that Huntresa and you have mentioned. These start with a comparison of Merc and Mclaren sped traps ... "something strange.... DDRS didnt work? or.... super long straight lines but McLaren are faster. DDRS advantage disappeared".

That isn't a discussion of a part on the car, it is comparing speed trap data between two cars, so that's a race topic. Also one can't extrapolate headline times to a specific part on a car. For all we know the two cars in question could have had different tyres, different age of tyres, different fuel loads, or running experimental parts.

To be completely transparent about it, the posts from the W03 thread that were moved to the race thread are:

viewtopic.php?p=350709#p350709
viewtopic.php?p=350711#p350711
viewtopic.php?p=350715#p350715
viewtopic.php?p=350724#p350724
viewtopic.php?p=350729#p350729

What i dont get is why would you move posts that mentions laptimes and sector times and looks stable in corner x to a race thread? How is that related to the race thread? IF anything its related to the god damn car, sure not a part of the car but the car overall and not at all the race since the race hasnt even happend yet.

If you cant talk about if the car looks stable in a corner in the car thread where can you talk about it? Plz explain.

Edit: My whole point is that its the car that sets the times and its the car that is stable in the corner, and that according to me should be in a car thread which they were.

Huntresa
Huntresa
54
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:33 am

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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Also sry for another post but looking at those you linked, would it have been "allowed" in the car thread if they didnt use the team names since that seems to be why you moved them ? Cause i personally cant see anything wrong with the post you linked that was moved, especiallly since as i mentioned above they didnt derail the conversation at all.

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strad
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Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:57 am

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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ps - There are quite a few members who report posts and send PMs to mods asking us to be even stricter.
And Max Mosley likes to get spanked,,,Doesn't mean every one does. There will always be some who want more, but if you are paying attention they are in the very small minority.
The place is over moderated and I think the vast majority agree.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Richard
Richard
Moderator
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:41 pm
Location: UK

Re: Tales from the moderating garage

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Huntresa - The principle of the car threads is that they focus on the features of the car, not the times of the car-driver-team combination.

To answer the your second post, the moved posts were not about features of the car, ie the physical things that are made in the factory.

Strad - Indeed, which is why most reports get a simple "thanks for highlighting this but I'll not take action" reply.