Moderator ferrari bias

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gridwalker
gridwalker
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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myurr wrote:
Giblet wrote:
bean wrote:"the burden of proof is on you"
I'm sorry but I don't have the energy or the inclination to trawl through various threads to provide proof.
I can appreciate why you made the observation and understand that what you see is not rooted in nothing. However, it is a basic rule in society and law, that you never accuse without proof, and these are if not serious, rather large and sweeping allegations about a site that to me has seen for the most part impartial.

Even just a couple examples would give you a bit of a foothold. I still stand by what I think, that more Alonso and Ferrari bashing threads are started than almost anyone else, so they will be fiery and go in circles and get closed. Similar topics include Max Mosley sex life and Briatores moral imbalances.

Rarely is intelligent discussion to be had in a 'bashing' thread.
And yet the 'Is McLaren really off the pace' thread is allowed to live despite it being a bashing thread devoid of much intelligent discussion.

I love this site, am grateful that it exists, and think that overall the mods do a great job. However I do feel some threads are closed prematurely, and can see at least some correlation between criticism of Alonso or Ferrari and how quickly a thread is shut down. Perhaps holding some of these threads open from time to time would give those that want to bash each other a place to do so and stop them from polluting other threads quite so much.

I disagree with most of what segedunum, for example, says - but I would defend his right to say it as much as my right to reply. It would be good to have the occasional thread where this is tolerated so that we could save the car threads, in particular, for more objective technical discussion.

So ... what are you proposing? Maybe there is a compromise somewhere ...

There could be some merit in a "bashing" subforum with slightly more relaxed rules (and a less incendiary name), but we would need to keep those threads WELL AWAY from the home page.

Give people a place where they can argue and b!tch as much as they like, then the rest of us can take or leave it as we please. Oh, wait, isn't that meant to be the Autosport.com forum?
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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gridwalker wrote:Oh, wait, isn't that meant to be the Autosport.com forum?
lol, true
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

myurr
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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gridwalker wrote:
myurr wrote:And yet the 'Is McLaren really off the pace' thread is allowed to live despite it being a bashing thread devoid of much intelligent discussion.

I love this site, am grateful that it exists, and think that overall the mods do a great job. However I do feel some threads are closed prematurely, and can see at least some correlation between criticism of Alonso or Ferrari and how quickly a thread is shut down. Perhaps holding some of these threads open from time to time would give those that want to bash each other a place to do so and stop them from polluting other threads quite so much.

I disagree with most of what segedunum, for example, says - but I would defend his right to say it as much as my right to reply. It would be good to have the occasional thread where this is tolerated so that we could save the car threads, in particular, for more objective technical discussion.

So ... what are you proposing? Maybe there is a compromise somewhere ...

There could be some merit in a "bashing" subforum with slightly more relaxed rules (and a less incendiary name), but we would need to keep those threads WELL AWAY from the home page.

Give people a place where they can argue and b!tch as much as they like, then the rest of us can take or leave it as we please. Oh, wait, isn't that meant to be the Autosport.com forum?
No not at all. I'm saying that maybe the mods wouldn't need to close as many threads and remove as many posts from other threads if they didn't close quite so many threads in the first place.

Richard
Richard
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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On a technical forum such as this when one of the cross beams has gone askew on the treadle, you wouldn't expect a Ferrari inquisition ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uprjmoSMJ-o

See, they are dressed in red. So it must be true.
Last edited by Richard on Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Steven
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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myurr wrote:And yet the 'Is McLaren really off the pace' thread is allowed to live despite it being a bashing thread devoid of much intelligent discussion.

I love this site, am grateful that it exists, and think that overall the mods do a great job. However I do feel some threads are closed prematurely, and can see at least some correlation between criticism of Alonso or Ferrari and how quickly a thread is shut down. Perhaps holding some of these threads open from time to time would give those that want to bash each other a place to do so and stop them from polluting other threads quite so much.

I disagree with most of what segedunum, for example, says - but I would defend his right to say it as much as my right to reply. It would be good to have the occasional thread where this is tolerated so that we could save the car threads, in particular, for more objective technical discussion.
First of all, let me say that while we all have our preference, I'm not at all a Ferrari fan, and I look carefully to avoid any bias. I'm sure all mods do that. Alonso rift with Hamilton back in 2007 is however closed and has been lenghtily discussed. We're not closing it only to prevent mindless Alonso bashing, but mainly to prevent a nonsense fight while nobody knows the complete truth. If nobody knows, it's better to stay silent, and if notobdy realises that, we help you :D

As for the "Is McLaren really off the pace", that is mainly speculation and it has been many posts being merged into that from the MP4-26 thread. I will repeat that we will continue doing that, as the car threads are meant for technical properties of the car, not discussions on team issues and certainly not speculation on how fast the car just might be. If you want to discuss that, fine, but not in the car threads.

Jon
Jon
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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Ratatouille wrote:...Even Seg's opinions as provocative as they may be sometimes should be kept for the sake of freedom of speech.

Unfortunately, the owners of this forum dictate their rules, which makes them dictators in a very literal sense. Since I am not a fan of dictatorships and above all their censorship towards the opinions of others, I will continue to voluntarily censor myself and not give them the opportunity to do it.

So Bean, I'm with you, but in the end F1T is just another kind of dictatorship.
I usually don't attach myself to these senseless discussions, but this post in particular made me go :wtf: . Really???? This guy really believes that? What on earth happened to common sense?

Look, I was going to be sarcastic and poke fun at you, but I decided to do something better, I'm going to explain it with a very simple metaphor. Here it goes:
Let's say I live in country "X", and I can assure you that freedom of speech is a part of its constitution and in practice, a law that is upheld. Another law states that I'm allowed to own property and, that too is a law that is upheld. Now, let's say that I invite you to my house, a property of mine where, as long as I don't break any law, I am free to run with any rules that I dream of, and after a few minutes of discussing the technical merits of my state of the art, LCD 3D HDTV, you decide to start talking BS about me and my TV manufacturer, calling me a mindless fan boy and some other nasty things. Being the noble guy that I am, I would politely ask you to refrain from insulting me or my appliance, maybe even twice. But if you continue with your tirade, I will eventually ask you to leave. Were you not to leave, I could call the police and accuse you of disrupting the peace of my home, and not leaving when asked to. And guess what? You citing your freedom of speech rights won't prevent the police from taking you away. Why? Because you are a guest at MY home and your rights to freedom of speech can't be upheld over my rights for peace in MY property. Oh, if only you could have behaved as a civilized citizen and realized all of this before being taken away, handcuffed by the police. Too bad, instead now you will be cell raped...err, I mean, held in a cell for the night, or something like that.

In case the metaphor is not yet clear (it might well not be, its still a fuzzy morning for me), I'll spell it out: This is Tomba's house, you are his guest, and he makes the rules. You don't like them? Well, then you have the right not to come even if he invites you. See how it's a reciprocal thing? It all evens out at the end.

gridwalker
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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Or, in short, nobody is dictating that you have to use this website. You can put up with the rules or find somewhere that your behaviour is accepted.

It is hardly as if defecting to PlanetF1 will land you in trouble as an illegal immigrant : Nobody is going to shoot you for trying to go "over the border".

You are a guest in a private space that is paid for using somebody else's money. I think that gives the admin team the rights to dictate their own terms.
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

donskar
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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I take part in multiple forums on multiple topics. F1T is the best.

Are the mods biased? Only to the extent that no human is totally unbiased. Please note that none of them is named Solomon. They do an excellent job.

Improvements? Yes, shut down threads sooner, especially those that constitute gratuitous bashing of anyone or anything. See WB's first post in THIS thread as an example of what I mean by a post that contains gratuitous bashing.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

andrew
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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I take the view that team bashing is fine as long as it is balanced, factual and as good humoured as possible.

Whilst once I would have jumped to the defence of Ferrari, however I find it impossible to do so these days.

Regarding the moderation, at least the mods are visible and approachable on here. I know of and use another site where the mods are invisible, removal of offensive posts is reserved for a select few it seems and posts appear to be pruned to suit the site's agenda. I won't name the site as it does not warrant advertising however after a couple years on said site, finding this one was great.

I have not noticed any Ferrari bias though would be interested if the topics author could provide us with examples. The burden of proof is on the topic author to support their accusation.

xpensive
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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I have PM'd Tomba on occation and asked for more, not less, moderation. However, I have asked for said moderation
first of all on the technical threads, the way things have developed Ciro seems to be doing it on a volonteer basis.

Ferrari bias or not, I neither know or care other than mx-t, but when the team in question is the single most mythological and popular on the grid, I guess it shouldn't really surprise anyone if they have a natural advantage there?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

bean
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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andrew wrote: I have not noticed any Ferrari bias though would be interested if the topics author could provide us with examples. The burden of proof is on the topic author to support their accusation.
I assume you have read the whole thread, since you have repeated almost verbatim a comment by Giblet.
Giblet wrote:Bean I am curious as to your opinion on my response about cause and effect. I feel you may be of a possibly wrong opinion as to why more Ferrari threads get locked than others.

The burden of proof is on you
I might as well repeat verbatim my reply
bean wrote:I'm sorry but I don't have the energy or the inclination to trawl through various threads to provide proof.
It is just an observation from a couple of years visiting the forum on a regular basis (I haven't posted much because I do not have the technical knowledge to contribute in a meaningful way - I'm just a lifelong F1 fan)
I suppose what brought on my post was the locking of the thread discussing the Bernie book and alonso allegations, although this is just the most recent in a long line of similar incidents.
Who is the greater fool, the idiot or the wise man who continues to argue with him?

Richard
Richard
Moderator
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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I've done your homework for you. The recent locked threads are below.

The gist is that threads along the lines of "my driver/team is god/devil" don't belong on this forum.



Spygate, again (from No Angel: The Secret Life of Bernie E.) viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9564

It's time for Hamilton to move on
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9587

engines getting smaller :(
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9553

David vs. Goliath(Red Bull vs. Ferrari), myth or truth? (Locked as it became another Renault engine debate)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9290&start=105


..Bernie. bahrain gp should not be held.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9534

Alonso Rates Fellow Drivers
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9512

Why Lewis was right by backing down from Button's triathlon
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9495

Who's the best driver today?(Poll) (locked to save it from itself!)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9437

Ferrari F150 (Locked for being a duplicate thread, nothing to do with it being a red car!)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9434

Renault RS27 vs Ferrari 056 vs Mercedes FO110X (locked for being a tiresome Renault engine debate)

Complaint (a discussion about why there are poor people in the world)
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9319

India to host end of year FIA Gala Awards Next year
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9279

Fernando Alonso Confronts Paparrazi View
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9307

Ferrari golden era is over (killed before it went the inevitable fanboi way)
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9309&start=0


Fuel Odor or Drop In Gas Mileage
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=9293
Last edited by Richard on Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bettonracing
bettonracing
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:57 pm

Re: Moderator ferrari bias

Post

WhiteBlue wrote:...
Pup wrote:Tomba is an Alonso fan, and mx_tifosi is a Ferrari fan. That bias will show itself no matter how hard they work to hide it.
Finally something again, we can agree on.
One could argue that the anti-Ferrari bias from some (most?) members here on F1T is alot harder to hide (and also more destructive to this website's integrity) than the mods' pro-Ferrari bias. At least You all seem to agree that they try to hide their bias, whereas it seems nobody tries to hide the anti-bias. To be honest, I think the anti-bias is the root of this entire thread (and the agreeing sentiments).

Since Ferrari is the most-hated team on earth (it sure seems so), maybe the quantity of closed Ferrari-bashing threads is just higher because there are more Ferrari-bashing threads than any other team?

Maybe Tomba just wants the site to remain semi-constructive?...

Regards,

H. Kurt Betton

Pup
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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bettonracing wrote:At least You all seem to agree that they try to hide their bias, whereas it seems nobody tries to hide the anti-bias. To be honest, I think the anti-bias is the root of this entire thread (and the agreeing sentiments).
Well it's pretty clear that you have an anti-bias-bias, and personally I think we should be accepting of both the biased and the anti-biased here - not to mention the bi-biased, of which I suspect there are more than a few.

andrew
andrew
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Re: Moderator ferrari bias

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bean wrote:I assume you have read the whole thread, since you have repeated almost verbatim a comment by Giblet.
Well you know what they say about assumption being the mother of all screw ups.

Yes I have read the whole thread and I apologise for sharing an opinion of another user. No duplication was intended.

Still waiting for those examples of Ferrari bashing.....