2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:36 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:41 am
_cerber1 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:01 am


https://ibb.co/cNZg6RN
https://youtu.be/KR48Q5U0AGA
Nether of those videos proves anything. The majority of Max's DNF's were mechanical, as were Hamilton's.

As for the video showing Hamilton's crashes....I didn't watch past 2009 as most seemed to be in practice sessions or in appalling conditions.
lewis has been racing for a tad longer as well, statistically, he's likely to have more crashes XD
Felipe Baby!

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Ryar
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:37 pm
I've got a great solution. For the rest of the season Max and Lewis drive the Haas cars....
I love this idea. But do you think those who are complaining here would all buy the subscription? If they do, they won't come back to these free section threads and can control their urge to complain about all things life? Doesn't life get lonely in the premium section, like in the technical threads here? How long would like minded people put up together in a quiet manner? I feel like there is a generation gap that has come up here between the old timers and new bees and the legacy mindset of "all things were great in the past" is playing out loud. Imagine if more than two drivers get involved in championship fight next year. Where would it leave these complaints? But it's natural evolution of social places. Good or bad is purely subjective. :)
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Ryar wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:38 pm
Imagine if more than two drivers get involved in championship fight next year. Where would it leave these complaints?
While I don't speak for everyone I'd say a lot of us don't have a problem with the drivers, it's some of the fans of the drivers we take issue with! A lot of them think they should be allowed come in and post whatever flippant thing they feel like. And some are doing it for no other reason then to irritate people!
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Ryar
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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dans79 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:58 pm
Ryar wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:38 pm
Imagine if more than two drivers get involved in championship fight next year. Where would it leave these complaints?
While I don't speak for everyone I'd say a lot of us don't have a problem with the drivers, it's some of the fans of the drivers we take issue with! A lot of them think they should be allowed come in and post whatever flippant thing they feel like. And some are doing it for no other reason then to irritate people!
That again is subjective isn't it, if you or I talk about it? There are mods and one can report the posts which either of us think are "flippant thing" and if they take your report and remove the content, that then qualifies as unacceptable. If not, then we need to be gracious in accepting it and not continue complaining about it as it would have become a personal opinion and not a "flippant thing" really. I wouldn't call anyone by name or tag them as such and such because someone posts something that goes against my sensibilities. I report such posts and if mods reject my reporting, i move on. What's the point in complaining with other like minded people. But that's just me. I am ok with all sorts of posters here. No hard feelings on what they post. I post what I like
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foxmulder_ms
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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ringo wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:13 pm
The rules dont nees to change. The other drivers are doing just fine.
Hamilton had no issues dueling with any other driver on track for over 14 years now.
It's not the first he is duelling an at least equally fast car.
If Max changes his mentality then we will magically see the end of these type of incidents.
He just need to understand when he is outcrafted and fall in line to try again.

Same at Silverstone. Hamilton sold him a dummy beautifully. And again he was angered.

He just lacks to plethora of racing tools that some of the greats do. Max's main skill set is driving fast and playing chicken till the other guy bails out.

This is my last post in this thread. See you all in Russia for another crashtactic weekend!
This time we will see Max blocking Lewis in qualy!
very well said, sir!! =D> :mrgreen:

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diffuser
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:37 pm
I've got a great solution. For the rest of the season Max and Lewis drive the Haas cars....

That would be funny, the only thin funnier is Mazaspin in a RBR.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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foxmulder_ms wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:16 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:13 pm
The rules dont nees to change. The other drivers are doing just fine.
Hamilton had no issues dueling with any other driver on track for over 14 years now.
It's not the first he is duelling an at least equally fast car.
If Max changes his mentality then we will magically see the end of these type of incidents.
He just need to understand when he is outcrafted and fall in line to try again.

Same at Silverstone. Hamilton sold him a dummy beautifully. And again he was angered.

He just lacks to plethora of racing tools that some of the greats do. Max's main skill set is driving fast and playing chicken till the other guy bails out.

This is my last post in this thread. See you all in Russia for another crashtactic weekend!
This time we will see Max blocking Lewis in qualy!
very well said, sir!! =D> :mrgreen:
Hamilton only has won 4 races this season. Max has 7, a whopping total of 3 more wins.
Yet, Hamilton is only 5 points behind him right now.

if i'm not mistaken, the most of the coming GP's will favor RBR less than the past GP's did.
AND, it's likely Max is going to take a engine penalty for Sochi. Now i am not sure whether Lewis HAS to too,
but i would be inclined to believe he can postpone it, and go for the win. Max might still make the podium,
i think 2nd would be just a bit too much with an engine penalty, though not impossible.
So if Lewis grabs the win, and Max 2nd, and neither gets a fastest lap, then they'd be on equal points in the championship. If Max finishes 3rd and Lewis 1st, then lewis will be in front again.

I think this will go down to the wire in Abu Dhabi.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Wouter wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:08 pm


26 DNF for Max in 7 years, mostly because the Renault PU and other mechanical failures.

And Lewis 24 DNF. How many PU and mechanical failures?
Just like to point out that according to StatsF1, Max and Lewis have had the following retirements

Retirements ----- Max - 29 Lewis - 27

Accidents/Collisions ---- Max - 13 ----- Lewis - 12

Races ----- Max - 136 ----- Lewis - 280

Retirement % ----- Max - 21% ----- Lewis - 9%

Accident % ----- Max - 9% ----- Lewis - 4%


So after actually looking at the real stats, it turns out Max has retired far more than Lewis when it comes to accidents. Lewis has less than 1 per season on average, Max has 2 per season on average.
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henry
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:31 am
Wouter wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:08 pm


26 DNF for Max in 7 years, mostly because the Renault PU and other mechanical failures.

And Lewis 24 DNF. How many PU and mechanical failures?
Just like to point out that according to StatsF1, Max and Lewis have had the following retirements

Retirements ----- Max - 29 Lewis - 27

Accidents/Collisions ---- Max - 13 ----- Lewis - 12

Races ----- Max - 136 ----- Lewis - 280

Retirement % ----- Max - 21% ----- Lewis - 9%

Accident % ----- Max - 9% ----- Lewis - 4%


So after actually looking at the real stats, it turns out Max has retired far more than Lewis when it comes to accidents. Lewis has less than 1 per season on average, Max has 2 per season on average.
Interesting.

I think a fairer comparison would be Hamilton’s first 136 races where he and Verstappen had more similarly competitive cars.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:31 am
Wouter wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:08 pm


26 DNF for Max in 7 years, mostly because the Renault PU and other mechanical failures.

And Lewis 24 DNF. How many PU and mechanical failures?
Just like to point out that according to StatsF1, Max and Lewis have had the following retirements

Retirements ----- Max - 29 Lewis - 27

Accidents/Collisions ---- Max - 13 ----- Lewis - 12

Races ----- Max - 136 ----- Lewis - 280

Retirement % ----- Max - 21% ----- Lewis - 9%

Accident % ----- Max - 9% ----- Lewis - 4%


So after actually looking at the real stats, it turns out Max has retired far more than Lewis when it comes to accidents.

Lewis has less than 1 per season on average, Max has 2 per season on average.
This is not the right conclusion imo.

It is a pity that that overview does not show that Lewis has been leading the field in the past year in a dominant car.
The chance of crashing there with someone is minimal. His crashes are therefore mainly from the period before.

Max, on the other hand, mostly drove between the first 5/6 drivers, in addition, several crashes of Max during the FP's and warm-up lap. He also crashed a few times because drivers crashed around him, so completely beyond his fault.

That is the disadvantage of this kind of statistics, the context is not mentioned.
It would also be fairer if the two drivers' first 133 starts were compared, when Hamilton was not yet driving a dominant car against Toro Rosso and RBR and they both had equal experience in F1.

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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:31 am
Wouter wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:08 pm


26 DNF for Max in 7 years, mostly because the Renault PU and other mechanical failures.

And Lewis 24 DNF. How many PU and mechanical failures?
Just like to point out that according to StatsF1, Max and Lewis have had the following retirements

Retirements ----- Max - 29 Lewis - 27

Accidents/Collisions ---- Max - 13 ----- Lewis - 12

Races ----- Max - 136 ----- Lewis - 280

Retirement % ----- Max - 21% ----- Lewis - 9%

Accident % ----- Max - 9% ----- Lewis - 4%


So after actually looking at the real stats, it turns out Max has retired far more than Lewis when it comes to accidents. Lewis has less than 1 per season on average, Max has 2 per season on average.
Silverstone this year you counted as Max's dnf and no Lewis', but Lewis caused it.You need to analyse races not put statistics.

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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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henry wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:38 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:31 am
Wouter wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:08 pm


26 DNF for Max in 7 years, mostly because the Renault PU and other mechanical failures.

And Lewis 24 DNF. How many PU and mechanical failures?
Just like to point out that according to StatsF1, Max and Lewis have had the following retirements

Retirements ----- Max - 29 Lewis - 27

Accidents/Collisions ---- Max - 13 ----- Lewis - 12

Races ----- Max - 136 ----- Lewis - 280

Retirement % ----- Max - 21% ----- Lewis - 9%

Accident % ----- Max - 9% ----- Lewis - 4%


So after actually looking at the real stats, it turns out Max has retired far more than Lewis when it comes to accidents. Lewis has less than 1 per season on average, Max has 2 per season on average.
Interesting.

I think a fairer comparison would be Hamilton’s first 136 races where he and Verstappen had more similarly competitive cars.
Going by Wikipiedia, here are retirements from both drivers coming from either collisions or running off track:

Max Verstappen

2015
Monaco: collision with Grosjean (Vers penalized)
Silverstone: Beaching on gravel

2016
Moncaco: collision (barrier)

2017:
Spain: collission with Kimi and Bottas
Austria: Collision with Kyvat Fernando and Max (Kyvat penalized)
Singapore: Collision with Vettel and Kimi

2018
Azerbaijan: Collision with Ricciardo

2019
Belgium: Collision with Perez
Japan: Collision with Leclerc

2020
Tuscan: Collision with Gasly, Kimi and Grosjean
Sakhir: Barrier

2021
Silverstone: Collision with Lewis. Lewis penalized
Italy: Collision with Lewis. Verstappen penalized


Lewis Hamilton
2007
China: Beached

2008
Canada: Collision with Raikonnen in pitlane. Hamilton 10 grid penalty next race

2009
Belgium: Collision with Alguersuari (domino from Grosjean)

2010
Italy: Collision with Massa
Singapore: Collision with Webber

2011
Canada: Collision with Button
Belgium: Collision with Kamui.

2012
Belgium: Collision with Grosjean. Grosjean race ban.
Brazil: Collision with Hülkenberg

2013
Japan: Collision with Webber

2014
Belgium: Collision with Rosberg

2016
Spain: Collision with Rosberg

2021
Italy: Collision with Verstappen. Verstappen penalized.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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renault rs26 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:25 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:31 am
Wouter wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:08 pm


26 DNF for Max in 7 years, mostly because the Renault PU and other mechanical failures.

And Lewis 24 DNF. How many PU and mechanical failures?
Just like to point out that according to StatsF1, Max and Lewis have had the following retirements

Retirements ----- Max - 29 Lewis - 27

Accidents/Collisions ---- Max - 13 ----- Lewis - 12

Races ----- Max - 136 ----- Lewis - 280

Retirement % ----- Max - 21% ----- Lewis - 9%

Accident % ----- Max - 9% ----- Lewis - 4%


So after actually looking at the real stats, it turns out Max has retired far more than Lewis when it comes to accidents. Lewis has less than 1 per season on average, Max has 2 per season on average.
Silverstone this year you counted as Max's dnf and no Lewis', but Lewis caused it.You need to analyse races not put statistics.
If you analyse races and not statistics then you would say many incidents wouldn't count because it wasnt the driver in questions fault. So then it becomes opinion based and gets out of hand. I just used solid statistics and it shows Max has had as many incidents as Lewis, but in less than half the races. So ill stick with that.
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henry
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:01 am
renault rs26 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:25 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:31 am


Just like to point out that according to StatsF1, Max and Lewis have had the following retirements

Retirements ----- Max - 29 Lewis - 27

Accidents/Collisions ---- Max - 13 ----- Lewis - 12

Races ----- Max - 136 ----- Lewis - 280

Retirement % ----- Max - 21% ----- Lewis - 9%

Accident % ----- Max - 9% ----- Lewis - 4%


So after actually looking at the real stats, it turns out Max has retired far more than Lewis when it comes to accidents. Lewis has less than 1 per season on average, Max has 2 per season on average.
Silverstone this year you counted as Max's dnf and no Lewis', but Lewis caused it.You need to analyse races not put statistics.
If you analyse races and not statistics then you would say many incidents wouldn't count because it wasnt the driver in questions fault. So then it becomes opinion based and gets out of hand. I just used solid statistics and it shows Max has had as many incidents as Lewis, but in less than half the races. So ill stick with that.
Statistics are not just numbers. You have to look at what you’re counting and how comparable any sets of numbers are. So the numbers for two comparable periods, the first 136 races, are comparable and total career numbers are not. IMHO
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e30ernest
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Re: 2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

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Palmer's analysis: