2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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organic
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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pipoloko wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:02 pm
pipoloko wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 6:04 pm
I will defer to the moderator if this video shall stay here or in Hungary's race
my reason is just to share what the guy has to say about Ferrari options and more important how analysis could and should be performed to avoid emotion-killing data
hope it helps
look at min 4 the lap times and you will see where LEC's problems started (lap 31) and you will see that SAI on older meds gets a more consistent result
hope this ends the discussion about the team performance of course can and shall be improved but the car and relaibility is still a problem we lost 2engines and Haas? and AR?
finger crossed MB doesn't gets P2 in championship
...

In the second stint, from lap 31 onwards Leclerc's problems didn't start... Check the y axis of the graph you refer to at ~4min into the video.. Leclerc begins to pull away from Sainz easily around that time rather than the opposite

This is elementary stuff

pipoloko
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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in other words
speed and deg are 2 diff issues
you go faster with high deg you need to replace tires earlier
and that is why Sainz tires lasted longer and he used 3 sets instead of 4 by lec which add at least 20/25 secs to your total race time

pipoloko
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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for the avoidance of the doubt
these are LEC's lap times (fasters that RUS and SAI) once he got P1
and you can see that even (or because?) he was faster than anyone else
his lap times increased by .8 in 8 laps or .1 average per lap
Ferrari pit wall knows better than we how much he was pushing
i assume he was still pushing since he passed Rus on lap 30/31 st
and lap 36/37 his laps times increased a lot
i have to assume is deg ( which it is a constant if we take the whole 2nd stints)
then before more damage, they called him a fitted Hards
SAI was lapping slower , manage d to get reds in his last stint and keep a P4
for some reason (small difference in setup? or driving style) he was killing his tires faster than SAI
someone could conclude that SAI was smarter than him
I don't believe so
both are skilled, talented and smart
most probably was a bit of setup difference and the f,,, cold weather
BTW the Cold weather helped a lot the MB
the devil is in the small details

31 lap P11:23.003
32 lap P11:24.278
33 lap P11:23.365
34 lap P11:23.388
35 lap P11:23.498
36 lap P11:23.144
37 lap P11:23.453
38 lap P11:23.805

Some additional comment
it were some comments about Ferrari's strategy tools etc >>>> excel etx etx
for those that don't know a reasonably good "strategy plan tool" cost less than 100k and you can find 5 of them in the market
even you can get for free some old in the internet
I believe they use something more sophisticated but not too much , no need.
what it cost a lot is 30+people working live at Maranello, Milton Keynes every weekend etc
and even with a good excel sheet, you can predict very well what is going to happen

listen to Binotto (and believing 85% of what he say, and understanding he can no tell everything (but he is not lying too) we will understand what is going on
or waiting 6 more months :D

Oleo
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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pipoloko wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:08 pm
for the avoidance of the doubt
these are LEC's lap times (fasters that RUS and SAI) once he got P1
and you can see that even (or because?) he was faster than anyone else
his lap times increased by .8 in 8 laps or .1 average per lap
Ferrari pit wall knows better than we how much he was pushing
i assume he was still pushing since he passed Rus on lap 30/31 st
and lap 36/37 his laps times increased a lot
i have to assume is deg ( which it is a constant if we take the whole 2nd stints)
then before more damage, they called him a fitted Hards
SAI was lapping slower , manage d to get reds in his last stint and keep a P4
for some reason (small difference in setup? or driving style) he was killing his tires faster than SAI
someone could conclude that SAI was smarter than him
I don't believe so
both are skilled, talented and smart
most probably was a bit of setup difference and the f,,, cold weather
BTW the Cold weather helped a lot the MB
the devil is in the small details

31 lap P11:23.003
32 lap P11:24.278
33 lap P11:23.365
34 lap P11:23.388
35 lap P11:23.498
36 lap P11:23.144
37 lap P11:23.453
38 lap P11:23.805

You seem to not consider lapped traffic.
In lap 38 Leclerc passed Latifi between turn 5 and 6, I think he would have lost a few tenths that lap around turn 2 to 5.
Then laps 33-38 are constant times with 36 an outlier.

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codetower
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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pipoloko wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:08 pm
for the avoidance of the doubt
these are LEC's lap times (fasters that RUS and SAI) once he got P1
and you can see that even (or because?) he was faster than anyone else
his lap times increased by .8 in 8 laps or .1 average per lap
Ferrari pit wall knows better than we how much he was pushing
i assume he was still pushing since he passed Rus on lap 30/31 st
and lap 36/37 his laps times increased a lot
i have to assume is deg ( which it is a constant if we take the whole 2nd stints)
then before more damage, they called him a fitted Hards
SAI was lapping slower , manage d to get reds in his last stint and keep a P4
for some reason (small difference in setup? or driving style) he was killing his tires faster than SAI
someone could conclude that SAI was smarter than him
I don't believe so
both are skilled, talented and smart
most probably was a bit of setup difference and the f,,, cold weather
BTW the Cold weather helped a lot the MB
the devil is in the small details

31 lap P11:23.003
32 lap P11:24.278
33 lap P11:23.365
34 lap P11:23.388
35 lap P11:23.498
36 lap P11:23.144
37 lap P11:23.453
38 lap P11:23.805

Some additional comment
it were some comments about Ferrari's strategy tools etc >>>> excel etx etx
for those that don't know a reasonably good "strategy plan tool" cost less than 100k and you can find 5 of them in the market
even you can get for free some old in the internet
I believe they use something more sophisticated but not too much , no need.
what it cost a lot is 30+people working live at Maranello, Milton Keynes every weekend etc
and even with a good excel sheet, you can predict very well what is going to happen

listen to Binotto (and believing 85% of what he say, and understanding he can no tell everything (but he is not lying too) we will understand what is going on
or waiting 6 more months :D
Dammit, I got sucked into this discussion again...

And if you start from lap 30 instead of 31, LEC was actually gaining time, not losing. ;)

I truly don't understand why it is so difficult to admit that Ferrari made a mistake. Charles was still running in the 1:23's when they pitted him. He himself was saying that his tyres were good, and thought he could stay out. Just about every other engineer, mechanic and driver who has commented on it (outside of Ferrari) think it was a mistake. Just accept it and move on. Try and find solutions, not more excuses.

Oh and BTW, if you want to compare the MB, the last 4 laps LEC was running right before they boxed him, he was running

23.49
23.14
23.43
23.80

His tyres at this point were 14 laps old. Hamiltons 2nd stint, on Yellows, 14 laps old was running

23.37
23.44
23.76
23.90

SLOWER than Leclerc, and using your logic, degrading at a faster rate. AND Mercedes kept him on an additional 14 laps after that. This was all at almost the same exact point in the race (Lap 35 vs 37).

It’s done, and it’s in the past. Everyone’s mind is made up one way or another. Everyone has seen all the data there is to see and at this point no one is going to change their opinion. it’s time to move on.

NOW I am truly done debating this topic.
“When a great team loses through complacency, it will constantly search for new and more intricate explanations to explain away defeat.”
― Pat Riley.

pipoloko
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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NOW I am truly done debating this topic.
dont worry
me too
I am not Italian but it looks to me that i believe more in an italian team than you !!!! hehehe
And I dont believe in the English press that now are selling the strategist girl as a queen, neither in Marko, toto or lewis laughing of ferrari
I beleive it is kind of cruzade againts ferrari (for a good reason >>>>$$$$) and they are going to win the war
we can talk again at the end of 2022 season
arrivederchi caro amichi :mrgreen:
hehehehhe

pipoloko
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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sorry :oops:
I just read this at f1 fans (as i said ) it is matter of time to get the info
here you get a piece or additional info
However the poor performance of the hard tyre did not take Ferrari completely by surprise. As the transcripts of their radio messages from the race shows, Ferrari advised Leclerc to look after his medium compound tyres during the second stint, potentially hoping to extend it, and warned him it would take longer to warm the hard tyre up then they originally expected.

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codetower
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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pipoloko wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:48 pm
NOW I am truly done debating this topic.
dont worry
me too
I am not Italian but it looks to me that i believe more in an italian team than you !!!! hehehe
And I dont believe in the English press that now are selling the strategist girl as a queen, neither in Marko, toto or lewis laughing of ferrari
I beleive it is kind of cruzade againts ferrari (for a good reason >>>>$$$$) and they are going to win the war
we can talk again at the end of 2022 season
arrivederchi caro amichi :mrgreen:
hehehehhe
Everybody makes mistakes. No body is perfect. And if you have read my posts, never have I lost faith. On the contrary, I have said that I believe Binotto and the team will improve... in the strategic area as effectively as they have in other areas. I've even replied to one of your posts where I said that I do not want the team to get rid of Binotto, that I believe he has done well, and I believe he can fix this area as well. Faith, I have not lost. Don't confuse recognizing a mistake, and hoping for solutions, with losing faith.
“When a great team loses through complacency, it will constantly search for new and more intricate explanations to explain away defeat.”
― Pat Riley.

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codetower
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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According to formulapassion.it, Ferrari will be introducing their new ES and MGU-k in SPA. Makes sense since September 1 is the definitive homologation date of the hybrid parts (That would mean a 5 place grid penalty for Leclerc?). It's a good track for overtaking so hopefully it wont be too bad for the team.

The article also reads that they plan some reliability upgrades around Austin (another 5 place likely).

Heres the best translated one I could find, as well as the original:

English:
https://scuderiafans.com/f1-ferrari-pow ... nd-austin/

original:
https://www.formulapassion.it/motorspor ... 28727.html
“When a great team loses through complacency, it will constantly search for new and more intricate explanations to explain away defeat.”
― Pat Riley.

space wadet
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Leclerc will be starting from the back of the grid in Spa, and most likely also another time before the end of the season. They've been accumulating exhausts and gearboxes up to the allowed limit until Hungary on LEC's car, so they can take a new gearbox and exhaust with a whole new powerunit without losing more positions (as they'll be starting from the back either way).

The problems with Ferrari's engines have generated increased use of exhausts, which are also capped at an annual maximum number that is 8. Especially for Leclerc, who arrived at Silverstone at no less than 5 used exhausts (also due to the double engine change) of the 8 available per season with 13 GPs still to go. Hence Ferrari's choice to accumulate (perfectly usable) exhausts between Austria, France and Hungary in order to arrive at Spa with the possibility of a penalty, which would happen for free if the fifth power unit will be fitted on the No. 16, as it seems. [...] A similar argument can be made for transmissions since Ferrari fitted the fourth in Hungary, and that may bring Leclerc in a 'free' penalty at Spa. In conclusion, the next GP for Leclerc could be the stock one in terms of exhausts and transmissions to avoid surprises, i.e., penalties on these two macro components on weekends where there are no engine replacements.
Source: formu1a.uno (Duchessa)
https://www.formu1a.uno/scelta-strategi ... el-motore/

Realistically, the championship became unlikely after the second engine failure in Baku. I'm sure it was clear to Binotto and the team. There would be 2 or 3 starts from the backs at least (for each driver), the looming possibility of failures and having to run the engine in "safe mode" (which they have in France and Hungary according to formu1a.uno). This year is still a year of building and improving, as Binotto has said.

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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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space wadet wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:59 am
Leclerc will be starting from the back of the grid in Spa, and most likely also another time before the end of the season. They've been accumulating exhausts and gearboxes up to the allowed limit until Hungary on LEC's car, so they can take a new gearbox and exhaust with a whole new powerunit without losing more positions (as they'll be starting from the back either way).

The problems with Ferrari's engines have generated increased use of exhausts, which are also capped at an annual maximum number that is 8. Especially for Leclerc, who arrived at Silverstone at no less than 5 used exhausts (also due to the double engine change) of the 8 available per season with 13 GPs still to go. Hence Ferrari's choice to accumulate (perfectly usable) exhausts between Austria, France and Hungary in order to arrive at Spa with the possibility of a penalty, which would happen for free if the fifth power unit will be fitted on the No. 16, as it seems. [...] A similar argument can be made for transmissions since Ferrari fitted the fourth in Hungary, and that may bring Leclerc in a 'free' penalty at Spa. In conclusion, the next GP for Leclerc could be the stock one in terms of exhausts and transmissions to avoid surprises, i.e., penalties on these two macro components on weekends where there are no engine replacements.
Source: formu1a.uno (Duchessa)
https://www.formu1a.uno/scelta-strategi ... el-motore/

Realistically, the championship became unlikely after the second engine failure in Baku. I'm sure it was clear to Binotto and the team. There would be 2 or 3 starts from the backs at least (for each driver), the looming possibility of failures and having to run the engine in "safe mode" (which they have in France and Hungary according to formu1a.uno). This year is still a year of building and improving, as Binotto has said.

Out of interest... Does anyone know what differences there is/was between the 2021 PU and the 2022 PU? Have they adopted a whole new engine in this time frame as it seems strange they had a reliable engine last year but they bring the PU to this year and its not reliable at all. Given the engine homologation at the start of the season too, you would have thought they would be much better prepared from the previous season(s).
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

pipoloko
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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space wadet wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:59 am
Leclerc will be starting from the back of the grid in Spa, and most likely also another time before the end of the season. They've been accumulating exhausts and gearboxes up to the allowed limit until Hungary on LEC's car, so they can take a new gearbox and exhaust with a whole new powerunit without losing more positions (as they'll be starting from the back either way).

The problems with Ferrari's engines have generated increased use of exhausts, which are also capped at an annual maximum number that is 8. Especially for Leclerc, who arrived at Silverstone at no less than 5 used exhausts (also due to the double engine change) of the 8 available per season with 13 GPs still to go. Hence Ferrari's choice to accumulate (perfectly usable) exhausts between Austria, France and Hungary in order to arrive at Spa with the possibility of a penalty, which would happen for free if the fifth power unit will be fitted on the No. 16, as it seems. [...] A similar argument can be made for transmissions since Ferrari fitted the fourth in Hungary, and that may bring Leclerc in a 'free' penalty at Spa. In conclusion, the next GP for Leclerc could be the stock one in terms of exhausts and transmissions to avoid surprises, i.e., penalties on these two macro components on weekends where there are no engine replacements.
Source: formu1a.uno (Duchessa)
https://www.formu1a.uno/scelta-strategi ... el-motore/

Realistically, the championship became unlikely after the second engine failure in Baku. I'm sure it was clear to Binotto and the team. There would be 2 or 3 starts from the backs at least (for each driver), the looming possibility of failures and having to run the engine in "safe mode" (which they have in France and Hungary according to formu1a.uno). This year is still a year of building and improving, as Binotto has said.
well at least I am not alone in saying that the Drivers championship is most likely gone and the manufacturer is still at risk
i feel a bit better understood :oops:
and reasons are
-engine reliability
-driver
-team perfomance
I would say 1/3 each
what means no one specifically to point fingers

LM10
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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chrisc90 wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 10:04 am
space wadet wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:59 am
Leclerc will be starting from the back of the grid in Spa, and most likely also another time before the end of the season. They've been accumulating exhausts and gearboxes up to the allowed limit until Hungary on LEC's car, so they can take a new gearbox and exhaust with a whole new powerunit without losing more positions (as they'll be starting from the back either way).

The problems with Ferrari's engines have generated increased use of exhausts, which are also capped at an annual maximum number that is 8. Especially for Leclerc, who arrived at Silverstone at no less than 5 used exhausts (also due to the double engine change) of the 8 available per season with 13 GPs still to go. Hence Ferrari's choice to accumulate (perfectly usable) exhausts between Austria, France and Hungary in order to arrive at Spa with the possibility of a penalty, which would happen for free if the fifth power unit will be fitted on the No. 16, as it seems. [...] A similar argument can be made for transmissions since Ferrari fitted the fourth in Hungary, and that may bring Leclerc in a 'free' penalty at Spa. In conclusion, the next GP for Leclerc could be the stock one in terms of exhausts and transmissions to avoid surprises, i.e., penalties on these two macro components on weekends where there are no engine replacements.
Source: formu1a.uno (Duchessa)
https://www.formu1a.uno/scelta-strategi ... el-motore/

Realistically, the championship became unlikely after the second engine failure in Baku. I'm sure it was clear to Binotto and the team. There would be 2 or 3 starts from the backs at least (for each driver), the looming possibility of failures and having to run the engine in "safe mode" (which they have in France and Hungary according to formu1a.uno). This year is still a year of building and improving, as Binotto has said.

Out of interest... Does anyone know what differences there is/was between the 2021 PU and the 2022 PU? Have they adopted a whole new engine in this time frame as it seems strange they had a reliable engine last year but they bring the PU to this year and its not reliable at all. Given the engine homologation at the start of the season too, you would have thought they would be much better prepared from the previous season(s).
Completely new PU with biggest changes to the ICE. This engine likely has not much in common with last year's. They pushed the power limits successfully as they built the most powerful one - at the expense of reliability. But that can be solved for next season.

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RS200E
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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pipoloko wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:02 pm
space wadet wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 4:59 am
Leclerc will be starting from the back of the grid in Spa, and most likely also another time before the end of the season. They've been accumulating exhausts and gearboxes up to the allowed limit until Hungary on LEC's car, so they can take a new gearbox and exhaust with a whole new powerunit without losing more positions (as they'll be starting from the back either way).

The problems with Ferrari's engines have generated increased use of exhausts, which are also capped at an annual maximum number that is 8. Especially for Leclerc, who arrived at Silverstone at no less than 5 used exhausts (also due to the double engine change) of the 8 available per season with 13 GPs still to go. Hence Ferrari's choice to accumulate (perfectly usable) exhausts between Austria, France and Hungary in order to arrive at Spa with the possibility of a penalty, which would happen for free if the fifth power unit will be fitted on the No. 16, as it seems. [...] A similar argument can be made for transmissions since Ferrari fitted the fourth in Hungary, and that may bring Leclerc in a 'free' penalty at Spa. In conclusion, the next GP for Leclerc could be the stock one in terms of exhausts and transmissions to avoid surprises, i.e., penalties on these two macro components on weekends where there are no engine replacements.
Source: formu1a.uno (Duchessa)
https://www.formu1a.uno/scelta-strategi ... el-motore/

Realistically, the championship became unlikely after the second engine failure in Baku. I'm sure it was clear to Binotto and the team. There would be 2 or 3 starts from the backs at least (for each driver), the looming possibility of failures and having to run the engine in "safe mode" (which they have in France and Hungary according to formu1a.uno). This year is still a year of building and improving, as Binotto has said.
well at least I am not alone in saying that the Drivers championship is most likely gone and the manufacturer is still at risk
i feel a bit better understood :oops:
and reasons are
-engine reliability
-driver
-team perfomance
I would say 1/3 each
what means no one specifically to point fingers
Then the finger is pointed at everyone. All aspects have done a bad job. If one main aspect did their job then the fight would stull be on.

mzso
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Re: 2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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JPower wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:26 am
pipoloko wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 2:20 am
in the Spanish and Italian versions of motorsport.com
Binotto said that some problems of the Ferrari car (en particular eng reliability) will be solved only in 2023
F1 | Binotto: "Alcuni problemi saranno risolti nel 2023"
Mattia Binotto, team principal della Ferrari, ha ammesso che alcuni problemi d'affidabilità verificatisi quest'anno saranno risolti per l'anno prossimo: serve tempo per fare determinate modifiche, ma nel 2022 si potranno gestire nei weekend di gara
.
those Italian speakers can translate more acurate than me the juicy part of the reportage

he is throwing the towell!!!! :(
I could not find the same version in english
Yes, we know the clutch and some elements of the PU will need revising in 2023. That has nothing to do with throwing in the towel. Stop overreacting. :roll:
At this point throwing in the towel would be symbolic only. Like if they did it in a box match when the count reached 8 for the motionless boxer.