2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Hoffman900
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:10 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 pm
This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.
What's the resolution on this data and how is it being measured?
It appears he is using frequency analysis from the exhaust mic to determine when the car is at full throttle and when the wastegates are open.

I couldn't guess what the resolution of the data is.
I think those numbers are within 5%, but I certainly wouldn't believe it to be exact.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:13 am
wuzak wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:10 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 am


What's the resolution on this data and how is it being measured?
It appears he is using frequency analysis from the exhaust mic to determine when the car is at full throttle and when the wastegates are open.

I couldn't guess what the resolution of the data is.
I think those numbers are within 5%, but I certainly wouldn't believe it to be exact.
I think it is more of a guide to see where the maximum power is deployed, and may give some insight as to how the 2026 rules would work.

For 2026 the maximum deployment is unlimited, but practically it will be 9MJ, the limit for recovery.

It looks like they could use all the 9MJ @ 350kW at Monaco (25.7s), but that would leave little time to recover the 9MJ (also 25.7s).

Monaco has a lot of braking events, but not many large stops.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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They deference in 2026 will be in the ICE having only one level of maximum power output instead of the two deferent levels it is capable of outputting at present.

Hoffman900
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:49 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:13 am
wuzak wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:10 am


It appears he is using frequency analysis from the exhaust mic to determine when the car is at full throttle and when the wastegates are open.

I couldn't guess what the resolution of the data is.
I think those numbers are within 5%, but I certainly wouldn't believe it to be exact.
I think it is more of a guide to see where the maximum power is deployed, and may give some insight as to how the 2026 rules would work.

For 2026 the maximum deployment is unlimited, but practically it will be 9MJ, the limit for recovery.

It looks like they could use all the 9MJ @ 350kW at Monaco (25.7s), but that would leave little time to recover the 9MJ (also 25.7s).

Monaco has a lot of braking events, but not many large stops.
I can't remember, is that 9MJ rules limited?



He doesn't say a lot, but does say they are finding harvesting through other methods, and I am assuming all the other teams are as well.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 6:44 am
I can't remember, is that 9MJ rules limited?
Yes. 9MJ is the limit for recovery.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Maybe is am simplyfing to much, but average braking time is 10s at Monza and 15s at Monaco. How are teams going to get more deployment than 10-15s per lap?

We say the same in older LMP1 series. Short burst of electric power on corner exits and extreme early breaking.

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yelistener
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 pm
This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.
What's the resolution on this data and how is it being measured?
Not sure how I can describe the Spectral resolution, but that spectral view is just there to confirm the full ERS boost part, as you can actually hear the difference when the wastegate opens (pitch goes a bit higher). Exhaust mic sound in full boost mode from Alpha Tauri is much more distinguishable so there's no need for the spectral view. Check out these videos from my channel. (some part of the image blurred to get pass Content-ID)




wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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yelistener wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:49 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 pm
This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.
What's the resolution on this data and how is it being measured?
Not sure how I can describe the Spectral resolution, but that spectral view is just there to confirm the full ERS boost part, as you can actually hear the difference when the wastegate opens (pitch goes a bit higher). Exhaust mic sound in full boost mode from Alpha Tauri is much more distinguishable so there's no need for the spectral view. Check out these videos from my channel. (some part of the image blurred to get pass Content-ID)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9nYB57MLJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iL8aMQZaLM

You wouldn't happen to have ones for Spa and Azerbijan?

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yelistener
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:43 am
yelistener wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:49 am
Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:05 am

What's the resolution on this data and how is it being measured?
Not sure how I can describe the Spectral resolution, but that spectral view is just there to confirm the full ERS boost part, as you can actually hear the difference when the wastegate opens (pitch goes a bit higher). Exhaust mic sound in full boost mode from Alpha Tauri is much more distinguishable so there's no need for the spectral view. Check out these videos from my channel. (some part of the image blurred to get pass Content-ID)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9nYB57MLJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iL8aMQZaLM
You wouldn't happen to have ones for Spa and Azerbijan?
Spa is zero full boost. Baku is like 0.5s at the exit of the last real corner. They're too little so it's not worth making a video.

It can be a bit different with other teams. Some cars' exhaust mic don't give away the full boost sound, so we can't know.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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yelistener wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:33 am
wuzak wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 3:43 am
yelistener wrote:
Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:49 am


Not sure how I can describe the Spectral resolution, but that spectral view is just there to confirm the full ERS boost part, as you can actually hear the difference when the wastegate opens (pitch goes a bit higher). Exhaust mic sound in full boost mode from Alpha Tauri is much more distinguishable so there's no need for the spectral view. Check out these videos from my channel. (some part of the image blurred to get pass Content-ID)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9nYB57MLJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iL8aMQZaLM
You wouldn't happen to have ones for Spa and Azerbijan?
Spa is zero full boost. Baku is like 0.5s at the exit of the last real corner. They're too little so it's not worth making a video.

It can be a bit different with other teams. Some cars' exhaust mic don't give away the full boost sound, so we can't know.
Thanks.

I guess they have sections that are full throttle for so long that there isn't enough energy to do full boost.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 pm
This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.
This the illegal Ferrari PU right? That is just weird, 28.5s of open wastegate

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henry
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Location: England

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:42 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 pm
This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.
This the illegal Ferrari PU right? That is just weird, 28.5s of open wastegate
I don’t think so on either point. Silver car labelled as Bottas. Total energy for the lap, starting with 4 MJ and supplementing it with braking, and/or some other methods looks reasonable.

I’m currently looking at the three energy balances from this data video, (thanks @yelistener). 4 MJ SOC, which starts at the last corner before the start and finish straight, 4MJ ES->K, 2MJ K->ES. I’ve just exited Casino square but the numbers look reasonable.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Nov 24, 2022 7:42 am
wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:30 pm
This full power deployment map is interesting



31.3s at full throttle.
28.5s at maximum power.
This the illegal Ferrari PU right? That is just weird, 28.5s of open wastegate
That is the Mercedes.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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"so - That is the mercedes" - so it is neither weird nor illegal.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Bottas wasn’t driving Sauber in 2019, silly me. Still impressed by the 28s off open wastegate.

So we have 4MJ Deployment at 120kw MGU-K, 2MJ K->ES brake energy recovery. So 2MJ is recovered from the MGU-H, while driving met open wastegate most of the lap. So even with the wastegate opened, there is still enough energy powering the turbine, to power both the compressor + MGU-H ?