Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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djos
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Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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I just watched this great video on offset cylinder engines vs traditional Zero offset cylinder engines and it got me wondering if this is

A/ legal in F1
And
B/ worth doing in race car applications.

"In downforce we trust"

saviour stivala
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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''DESAXE'' position of cylinder/s - To minimize piston side thrust and maximize leaverage on crankshaft. The famous 1913 Peogeot L3 3-litre four had the cylinder block offest 20mm to the right of crankshaft main bearings centerline when viewed from front.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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offsets were used in steam engines - but were then rather un-invented to enable double-acting

presumably illegal in F1 - or engine supplier swaps would be more difficult

with V engines offsets are usually used for package reasons - ie 'handed' displacing of cylinder bores VR5/6 Lancia Morini
if used for performance reasons 'handed' offsets would be beneficial on one bank but dis-beneficial on the other bank
this would negate eg benefits from to better piston motion on the power stroke

with inline engines offsetters claim reduced side thrust friction on the power stroke
but in very high rpm low boost engines .....
friction work due to inertia forces is anyway greater than power stroke friction work
and piston motion benefits on the power stroke etc might even reduce peak rpm and peak power

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djos
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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Thanks for the info gents, it’s a fascinating topic. Just thinking about balancing a V6 with offset cylinders makes my head hurt. 🤣
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saviour stivala
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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djos wrote:
26 Mar 2023, 23:03
Thanks for the info gents, it’s a fascinating topic. Just thinking about balancing a V6 with offset cylinders makes my head hurt. 🤣
Yes. While the advantage is of reduced piston side thrust and longer duration (greater than 180 degree) intake and power stroke. The penalty is of variation in inertia forces.

saviour stivala
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
26 Mar 2023, 17:53
offsets were used in steam engines - but were then rather un-invented to enable double-acting

presumably illegal in F1 - or engine supplier swaps would be more difficult

with V engines offsets are usually used for package reasons - ie 'handed' displacing of cylinder bores VR5/6 Lancia Morini
if used for performance reasons 'handed' offsets would be beneficial on one bank but dis-beneficial on the other bank
this would negate eg benefits from to better piston motion on the power stroke

"Presumably illegal in F1'' I do not know it if is illegal or not in F1 and neither if it was always illegal. What I know but not at what time, is that cylinder offset is claimed as having been used in F1 (taken advantage off). The Lancia Fulvia (narrow angle VEE FOUR the crankshaft has offset crankpins double the angle of the VEE. The centerline of the crank is not actually at theoretical apex of the VEE. The 1298 version (77*69.7) the angle 12 degrees 40 minutes. The 1600 version (82*75) 11 degrees 20 minutes.
Last edited by saviour stivala on 27 Mar 2023, 07:42, edited 1 time in total.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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saviour stivala wrote:
27 Mar 2023, 00:10
Yes. While the advantage is of reduced piston side thrust .....
just to be clear .....

the advantage of reduced piston side thrust does not exist in offset V engines (eg the Lancia Fulvia example given)
there is reduced side thrust on 2 pistons and increased side thrust on 2 pistons
similarly eg the VW VR5/6 and all the rest
because 2 cylinders are moved to the right and 2 cylinders to the left of the crankshaft (ie 'single-bank' V engines)

yes Lancia were from 100 years ago quantity-producing these offset (V4 Lambda) etc cars with unitary structure and ifs
but their pure race engines ie 1956 WDC-winner D50 'Lancia-Ferrari' V8 (and V6 D24? sports racer) weren't offset

notice the nice man in the video only shows inline engines and doesn't mention V engines

saviour stivala
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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saviour stivala wrote:
27 Mar 2023, 07:38
Tommy Cookers wrote:
26 Mar 2023, 17:53
offsets were used in steam engines - but were then rather un-invented to enable double-acting

presumably illegal in F1 - or engine supplier swaps would be more difficult

with V engines offsets are usually used for package reasons - ie 'handed' displacing of cylinder bores VR5/6 Lancia Morini
if used for performance reasons 'handed' offsets would be beneficial on one bank but dis-beneficial on the other bank
this would negate eg benefits from to better piston motion on the power stroke

"Presumably illegal in F1'' I do not know it if is illegal or not in F1 and neither if it was always illegal. What I know but not at what time, is that cylinder offset is claimed as having been used in F1 (taken advantage off). The Lancia Fulvia (narrow angle VEE FOUR the crankshaft has offset crankpins double the angle of the VEE. The centerline of the crank is not actually at theoretical apex of the VEE. The 1298 version (77*69.7) the angle 12 degrees 40 minutes. The 1600 version (82*75) 11 degrees 20 minutes.

Neither do I know if VEE engines were in use in F1 when cylinder offset was claimed to have been used (taken advantage off) but I assume they were. As to the Lancia Fulvia (narrow angle VEE FOUR) my point was the two versions discussed the cylinders were actually not offset from the crank main bearings centerline, but the crankpin was, which gives the same effect, same as offset piston pin, of which I suspect what was used in F1 re the claim that offsetting was taken advantage off in F1.

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Holm86
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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djos wrote:
26 Mar 2023, 13:45
I just watched this great video on offset cylinder engines vs traditional Zero offset cylinder engines and it got me wondering if this is

A/ legal in F1
And
B/ worth doing in race car applications.

I've just skimmed through the regulations, and I can't find anything that say that the axes of the cylinders has to meet with the axis of the crankshaft at any point.

So I would think it's legal

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djos
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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Cool. I wonder if there would be any efficiency benefit with the current regs given that the PU’s have to last so long.

The balancing issues might not have been a problem back in the 3 lap qualifying hand grenade days.
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Holm86
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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djos wrote:
27 Mar 2023, 14:23
Cool. I wonder if there would be any efficiency benefit with the current regs given that the PU’s have to last so long.

The balancing issues might not have been a problem back in the 3 lap qualifying hand grenade days.
I don't think the balance is such an issue with a race engine.
The 90° V6 engine is already inherently imbalanced

saviour stivala
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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Cylinder offset was claimed to have been used in F1 (taken advantage off). Re the expressed on here that the piston side-thrust in an offset cylinder reduced during two of the four stroke but increased during the other two, the piston side-thrust in an offset cylinder is reduced during the power and intake strokes but increased during the compression and exhaust stroke, so why was offset cylinders used?, they were used because there is a gain to be had, if there was not, they would not have been used, the gain is in the fact that the greatest piston side-thrust occurs during the expansion/power stroke. So with cylinder offset an overall reduction in total friction occurs. There might be calculated to be other benefits, although displacement does not change, piston TDC/BDC are further down the bore, as offset is increased so the dec is trimmed to suit, Also both the expansion/power and intake stroke are past the 180 degree mark. Another possible gain example is best explained by the use of a bicycle crank, with the crank positioned a 2 o/clock it is easer to get going than with the crank being positioned at 1 o/clock. All in all, there must be a measurable benefit for 'desaxe' to be used.

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vorticism
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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Quick look at the regs suggests that this could be done, although as hinted to by those above it would not offer much if any benefit in a vee engine. You could lower the cylinders relative to the crank which would lower CoG, but the engine mounting points and even the engine CoG is already specified in the regs, so no point in pursuing even that.
𓄀

wuzak
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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saviour stivala wrote:
27 Mar 2023, 07:38
The Lancia Fulvia (narrow angle VEE FOUR the crankshaft has offset crankpins double the angle of the VEE. The centerline of the crank is not actually at theoretical apex of the VEE. The 1298 version (77*69.7) the angle 12 degrees 40 minutes. The 1600 version (82*75) 11 degrees 20 minutes.
Isn't that an angular offset of the crankpin, rather than the cylinder being offset from the crank centreline?

saviour stivala
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Re: Are offset cylinder engines allowed in F1?

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wuzak wrote:
28 Mar 2023, 01:51
saviour stivala wrote:
27 Mar 2023, 07:38
The Lancia Fulvia (narrow angle VEE FOUR the crankshaft has offset crankpins double the angle of the VEE. The centerline of the crank is not actually at theoretical apex of the VEE. The 1298 version (77*69.7) the angle 12 degrees 40 minutes. The 1600 version (82*75) 11 degrees 20 minutes.
Isn't that an angular offset of the crankpin, rather than the cylinder being offset from the crank centreline?
Exactly. That (what you saying) has been explained yesterday 27 Mar 12:59 6 posts back on this same page. The offsetting of cylinder/s centerline to that of the crankshaft main bearing centerline (desaxe cylinders) was and is more widely used than one can think including in formula one racing engines. The offsetting of cylinders and or other such intended designs to achieve one of its more than one aimed effects can be achieved in more ways than one, including not actually moving the cylinder/s and or crankshaft main bearings centerlines apart. The original scope of gain of the 'desaxe' cylinders was solely aimed at mechanical leverage. With the advent of the aluminum pistons the unpleasant piston rattle when road going ICE was cold, pistons pin offset started to be widely used, this was one of the variant of 'desaxe'. The other was 'pulling down (by design) cylinders in the block in relation to crankshaft horizontal centerline on ''VEE ENGINES'' ''INCLUDING IN F1 RACING), This design actually pushed cylinder banks of a VEE ENGINE not only lower, but further apart and out of main bearing centerline. One VEE ENGINE desaxe incorporated design which is still talked about today was the FORD MODEL A V8, Ford moved both cylinder banks the same amount and together off crankshaft main bearing centerline. (cylinder blocks were moved both the same amount 'sideways' (to the driver's side).