Concept power units from 2030

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
mzso
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 3:04 pm
mclaren111 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:36 am
DenBommer wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:33 am
What is your opinion on making F1 cars AWD?

Personally, I was thinking of an AWD boost, where drivers can make their cars AWD for certain periods per lap, but only like DRS when they are within one second.

Wouldn't this add a lot of weight ? These cars weigh and look like tanks...

https://www.wired.com/story/yasa-motors ... flux-2024/

Yasa Motors claims they can deliver 43 horsepower per kilogram.

Of course, every kilogram added to the front wheels is one too many.
AWD only makes sense with full electric power to me. It's much easier to use 2-4 electric motors while keeping the weight, complexity down. Plus you get brake balancing, torque vectoring, and 4 wheel regen.

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:26 pm
55 years ago I witnessed the unofficial AWD British Grand Prix
it started concurrently with the official GP but fell back
the winner had a secret - his car had 0%/100% torque split
Do you mean that the winner had only rear-wheel drive?

It's been 55 years now. I also think we're talking about a different era now with electric motors.

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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mzso wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 6:17 pm
DenBommer wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 3:04 pm
mclaren111 wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:36 am



Wouldn't this add a lot of weight ? These cars weigh and look like tanks...

https://www.wired.com/story/yasa-motors ... flux-2024/

Yasa Motors claims they can deliver 43 horsepower per kilogram.

Of course, every kilogram added to the front wheels is one too many.
AWD only makes sense with full electric power to me. It's much easier to use 2-4 electric motors while keeping the weight, complexity down. Plus you get brake balancing, torque vectoring, and 4 wheel regen.
So you’re in favor of AWD?

My only fear with AWD is that the cars might become too easy to drive.

On the other hand, today's cars are already easier to drive than those from 20-30 years ago, aren't they?

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:43 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:26 pm
55 years ago I witnessed the unofficial AWD British Grand Prix
it started concurrently with the official GP but fell back
the winner had a secret - his car had 0%/100% torque split
Do you mean that the winner had only rear-wheel drive?

It's been 55 years now. I also think we're talking about a different era now with electric motors.
iirc the winner of the imaginary AWD race was Johnny Servoz-Gavin (finishing 7th or so in the actual GP)
these cars having torque split adjustable in the centre differential - he chose 0/100 split as it was fastest
(iirc AWD won with and without gas turbines at Indy)

yes we are in a different era - with and without electric machines aka motors
an era when we can control our motors proximity to wheel-slip a thousand times a second
yes we might cosily regard it as torque-control or rpm-control or anything really but ....
if the FIA lets you do this you might well use 2 or 4 motors each driving an axle (as mzso implies)

already happening is the thousand-times-a second shaft position flagging to the control electronics
(time stamps via the supply leads)
this is how a brushless motor (or eg a reluctance motor) is worked these days

the programmed control response is transparent and subject thereby to rules but .....
in extremis there could be (off-program) pole slipping or skipping amounting to something like TC, ABS, or Senna-foot
and/or tyre-warming by 'dither'

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 9:24 pm
DenBommer wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 7:43 pm
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:26 pm
55 years ago I witnessed the unofficial AWD British Grand Prix
it started concurrently with the official GP but fell back
the winner had a secret - his car had 0%/100% torque split
Do you mean that the winner had only rear-wheel drive?

It's been 55 years now. I also think we're talking about a different era now with electric motors.
iirc the winner of the imaginary AWD race was Johnny Servoz-Gavin (finishing 7th or so in the actual GP)
these cars having torque split adjustable in the centre differential - he chose 0/100 split as it was fastest
(iirc AWD won with and without gas turbines at Indy)

yes we are in a different era - with and without electric machines aka motors
an era when we can control our motors proximity to wheel-slip a thousand times a second
yes we might cosily regard it as torque-control or rpm-control or anything really but ....
if the FIA lets you do this you might well use 2 or 4 motors each driving an axle (as mzso implies)

already happening is the thousand-times-a second shaft position flagging to the control electronics
(time stamps via the supply leads)
this is how a brushless motor (or eg a reluctance motor) is worked these days

the programmed control response is transparent and subject thereby to rules but .....
in extremis there could be (off-program) pole slipping or skipping amounting to something like TC, ABS, or Senna-foot
and/or tyre-warming by 'dither'
So if I understand correctly, there is a chance that if AWD were to be introduced in F1 (hypothetically), it could allow for faster and more cunning maneuvers?

mzso
mzso
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:26 pm
55 years ago I witnessed the unofficial AWD British Grand Prix
What is that?

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2024 10:09 pm
So if I understand correctly, there is a chance that if AWD were to be introduced in F1 (hypothetically), it could allow for faster and more cunning maneuvers?
well it wouldn't change the laws of motion
though (as with aerodynamically unstable aircraft) some might believe otherwise

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-whee ... ormula_One
seems to say that the only WDC point scored by an AWD car (Matra) was with the car gutted of front drive parts
point scored late in 1969 season (not in British GP)

interestingly Formula E (non-emergency) has no friction braking on the rear axle (and o/c a single gear for years now)

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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Few can calculate the pioneering design greatness of the F1 racing car. By 1949 one of most advanced 4WD F1 car design was produced with a selectable by the driver 4 or 2 WD, through a sequential gearbox. such a great product was designed by a dislodged from its home base minuscule design office. For full information Google :- bringatrailer.com. technically-int Cisitalia-Porsche 360 grand prix.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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the 1954 F1 Alfa Romeo tipo 160 was AWD and chassis-less (and not completed) - the driver sat behind the rear axle
similarly the Mercedes-Benz 196 was designed around future-proofing (development to completion with AWD)
and the H16 BRM had its clutch in the wrong place because the order came to make everything AWD-compatible

also there were 6 wheel F1 cars - the successful Tyrrell (4 front wheels) and the March concept (4 rear wheels)
handy for recovery if you have 6 electrical machines

yes all this stuff was banned c.1983

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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I was thinking of an AWD concept similar to DRS. When within one second, AWD can be activated for 5 seconds.

Or like the current/new push-to-pass system used in IndyCar.

mzso
mzso
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 5:32 pm
I was thinking of an AWD concept similar to DRS. When within one second, AWD can be activated for 5 seconds.

Or like the current/new push-to-pass system used in IndyCar.
That would be a lot of dead weight to carry around for all the rest of the time.

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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mzso wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:21 pm
DenBommer wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 5:32 pm
I was thinking of an AWD concept similar to DRS. When within one second, AWD can be activated for 5 seconds.

Or like the current/new push-to-pass system used in IndyCar.
That would be a lot of dead weight to carry around for all the rest of the time.
Indeed, you are right

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Re: Concept power units from 2030

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mzso wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:21 pm
DenBommer wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 5:32 pm
I was thinking of an AWD concept similar to DRS. When within one second, AWD can be activated for 5 seconds.

Or like the current/new push-to-pass system used in IndyCar.
That would be a lot of dead weight to carry around for all the rest of the time.
On the other hand, isn't this not entirely dead weight?

The front motor is also used to harvest energy when it’s not deploying energy, right?

mzso
mzso
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Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: Concept power units from 2030

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DenBommer wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2024 6:01 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:21 pm
DenBommer wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 5:32 pm
I was thinking of an AWD concept similar to DRS. When within one second, AWD can be activated for 5 seconds.

Or like the current/new push-to-pass system used in IndyCar.
That would be a lot of dead weight to carry around for all the rest of the time.
On the other hand, isn't this not entirely dead weight?

The front motor is also used to harvest energy when it’s not deploying energy, right?
That wan't suggested, neither was a rear motor to use the energy.

DenBommer
DenBommer
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Joined: Tue May 09, 2023 1:20 pm

Re: Concept power units from 2030

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mzso wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2024 11:43 am
DenBommer wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2024 6:01 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:21 pm


That would be a lot of dead weight to carry around for all the rest of the time.
On the other hand, isn't this not entirely dead weight?

The front motor is also used to harvest energy when it’s not deploying energy, right?
That wan't suggested, neither was a rear motor to use the energy.
In that, I may not have been clear enough.

I am still deciding between hub motors or just a single motor on the front axle.

I think the latter brings the least complexity and also, less is more. But won't this require too many adjustments to the chassis?