2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

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ringo
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by ringo » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:34 am

GPR-A wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:15 pm
ringo wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:53 am
WaikeCU wrote:
Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:53 am
I think that Ferrari has an incredible amount of mechanical grip tbh. How it overtook the FI's without a bargeboard and if I'm not mistaken, with that broken front wing it still managed a decent gap towards Ricciardo.
Answer: RAW POWER under the engine cover. I don't see why people refuse to accept that this ferrari engine is a monster, and is the most powerful engine this year.
And still, they were 8MPH slower throughout the race in Russia, compared to Mercedes, where Mercedes were struggling for tyre grip in the race.
This is the canadian GP, why go back to russia?
We know ferrari had turbo issues, they may have more confidence now in unleashing the monster cavalinho under the hood. Phil has stated facts. and So has Gunthner Steiner of Haas. Since when did we ignore facts on F1t?
Scarbs will need to ask an engineer and get us an answer, but based on Vettel's closing speeds in quali and also on the force indias; i think ive seen enough and im not downplaying mercedes to look like underdogs, as their car is very good. I just think ferrari got everything right this year.
The PU with all the ERS may not be as refined as the mercs (i have no evidence of this_) but i believe the ICE has the RAW POWER as i stated before. A peak power advantage. But lets wait till Baku. I wont be surprised if Vettel is flying past a williams on the straights.
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ringo
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by ringo » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:41 am

GPR-A wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:45 pm


You are forgetting the most important factor, drag, the Ferrari, seems to me, to produce less drag while creating similar amounts of downforce to the Merc.
Sorry, that doesn't make sense. In Sector 1, which is full of chicanes and corners requiring great deal of downforce, Vettel was 3 tenths down on Hamilton's S1 time. That shows, Ferrari had less downforce (less drag obviously) and hence, was faster on straights.
[/quote]

was that an error free sector, or were they driving the same, saving tyres for the other sector etc. ? Lets not bring corners into this. Lewis has some secret on this track also. So there are a lot of unknowns. What we need to look on is the straight and also the braking point at the end of the straight if we are to remove the driver factor out of this; that would give the best representation of the car's power and also downforce.
You have your straight which no driver can be different than the other, and then a braking zone, which more or less is dependent on downforce levels.
Dont ignore that simple test if i doesnt suit your agenda. As Phil said vettel was closing on the straights.
If you think thats because ferrari had low drag, then you can just check his braking point and determine how much downforce and drag the ferrari has relative to the mercedes.
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ringo
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by ringo » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:50 am

Interesting comments from Paddy Lowe after the Q;
Has Hamilton got Senna's speed, I asked Lowe?

"Yeah, undoubtedly," he said. "Those great drivers are able to pull out an extraordinary lap. You kind of saw that with Lewis today. Probably on Mercedes' estimations and all their simulations, that time wasn't in the car. They didn't have it on their charts for today. They probably thought Ferrari had them after P3 and then Lewis will go out there and really dig deep.

"They can't do it every Saturday but every now and again they just go out there and something really extraordinary is required and they produce a lap where you go: 'Wow, where on earth did that come from?' And Lewis is certainly one to do that, and so was Ayrton."
Hmm seems someones breaking the laws of Phsysics.. :P
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dans79
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by dans79 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:28 am

ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:50 am
Hmm seems someones breaking the laws of Phsysics.. :P
Nah, he just proved what every scientist or engineer needs reminded of from time to time. No matter how good they think their models are, they're only approximations and thus not perfect.

GPR-A
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by GPR-A » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:25 am

ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:41 am
was that an error free sector, or were they driving the same, saving tyres for the other sector etc. ?
Nobody leaves 3 tenths for saving tyres. It's max a tenth or less. No one reported any error in Sector 1 for Vettel. Not even himself.
ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:41 am
Lets not bring corners into this.
Unless you are newbee, you wouldn't discount why a car would be faster through corners. The more downforce you put, the more time you gain through corners AT the expense of straightline performance.
ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:41 am
Lewis has some secret on this track also.
Chicane on any circuit on the calendar, you will see Lewis going faster and this circuit has plenty.
ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:41 am
What we need to look on is the straight and also the braking point at the end of the straight if we are to remove the driver factor out of this; that would give the best representation of the car's power and also downforce.
Yes. The more downforce you wear, the more you get slower.
ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:41 am
You have your straight which no driver can be different than the other, and then a braking zone, which more or less is dependent on downforce levels.
I don't know what you are trying to say here.
ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:41 am
Dont ignore that simple test if i doesnt suit your agenda. As Phil said vettel was closing on the straights.
If you think thats because ferrari had low drag, then you can just check his braking point and determine how much downforce and drag the ferrari has relative to the mercedes.
That is the whole point. Just look at how how Vettel was desperate to gain time and out breaking himself on the hairpin.

By the end of sector two, Vettel was 4 tenths down. Do you think he was still conserving tyres? He only gained 0.071 in the whole of Sector 3 (a hairpin, a long straight, a chicane and a start straight). That shows, Mercedes compromised straight line speed for better corner performance and that paid off handsomely!

Ringo, you are being desperate to prove Ferrari PU is faster than Mercedes, without providing any data whatsoever and relying on someone else' statements. I am not going to debate any further on this, unless you provide some kind of data that differentiates the performance.

WaikeCU
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by WaikeCU » Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:38 am

ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:50 am
Interesting comments from Paddy Lowe after the Q;
Has Hamilton got Senna's speed, I asked Lowe?

"Yeah, undoubtedly," he said. "Those great drivers are able to pull out an extraordinary lap. You kind of saw that with Lewis today. Probably on Mercedes' estimations and all their simulations, that time wasn't in the car. They didn't have it on their charts for today. They probably thought Ferrari had them after P3 and then Lewis will go out there and really dig deep.

"They can't do it every Saturday but every now and again they just go out there and something really extraordinary is required and they produce a lap where you go: 'Wow, where on earth did that come from?' And Lewis is certainly one to do that, and so was Ayrton."
Hmm seems someones breaking the laws of Phsysics.. :P
Or just marketing talk. Just giving Lewis more exposure, because he equals a record of a racing legend.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:05 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:13 pm
Phil wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:04 am
There was a comparison between Vettel and Hamilton Q3 lap of Montreal and it showed quite clearly that on every stretch of straight, Vettel was in fact closing the gap to Hamilton. Vettel lost the time in the corners, not the straights. That's where he gained on Hamilton...
Theoretically speaking, if Vettel was losing time on corners and gaining on Straights, then he was down on downforce, which in turn contributes in straight line speed. That still doesn't give a picture of PU power. It's a compromise that Ferrari chose.
But you are forgetting on key thing.. As they all have the same tyres you can look at the braking distance to tell how much downforce is on the car. The Ferrari actually has more downforce most of the time than the Mercs. For Canada we will have to review braking distances between the two cars although it is not 100% telling it is still another way to gauge it.
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Juzh
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by Juzh » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:42 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:05 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:13 pm
Phil wrote:
Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:04 am
There was a comparison between Vettel and Hamilton Q3 lap of Montreal and it showed quite clearly that on every stretch of straight, Vettel was in fact closing the gap to Hamilton. Vettel lost the time in the corners, not the straights. That's where he gained on Hamilton...
Theoretically speaking, if Vettel was losing time on corners and gaining on Straights, then he was down on downforce, which in turn contributes in straight line speed. That still doesn't give a picture of PU power. It's a compromise that Ferrari chose.
But you are forgetting on key thing.. As they all have the same tyres you can look at the braking distance to tell how much downforce is on the car. The Ferrari actually has more downforce most of the time than the Mercs. For Canada we will have to review braking distances between the two cars although it is not 100% telling it is still another way to gauge it.
Braking distances between vettel and hamilton are especially hard to compare since we've seen multiple times now their approach is entirely different. Vettel fast in - slow out, Hamilton the opposite.

Juzh
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by Juzh » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:05 am

GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:25 am
Ringo, you are being desperate to prove Ferrari PU is faster than Mercedes, without providing any data whatsoever and relying on someone else' statements. I am not going to debate any further on this, unless you provide some kind of data that differentiates the performance.
We don't know for sure who actually ran more or less downforce, because the data is conflicting (vettel faster in S3 despite being slower on the straights, hamilton faster in S1 despite supposedly running less DF), but in qualifying mercedes was faster than ferrari on every meaningful full throttle section

Start/finish straight vmax:
ferrari 308
mercedes 314

turn 3 entry:
ferrari 265
mercedes 266

turn 6 entry:
ferrari 279 kph
mercedes 281 kph

turn 8 entry:
ferrari 303 kph
mercedes 306 kph

turn 10 entry:
ferrari 299 kph
mercedes 302 kph

back straight vmax:
ferrari 326 kph
mercedes 330 kph

I'd say merc clearly still has an edge.

Hammerfist
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by Hammerfist » Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:33 pm

Juzh wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:05 am
GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:25 am
Ringo, you are being desperate to prove Ferrari PU is faster than Mercedes, without providing any data whatsoever and relying on someone else' statements. I am not going to debate any further on this, unless you provide some kind of data that differentiates the performance.
We don't know for sure who actually ran more or less downforce, because the data is conflicting (vettel faster in S3 despite being slower on the straights, hamilton faster in S1 despite supposedly running less DF), but in qualifying mercedes was faster than ferrari on every meaningful full throttle section

Start/finish straight vmax:
ferrari 308
mercedes 314

turn 3 entry:
ferrari 265
mercedes 266

turn 6 entry:
ferrari 279 kph
mercedes 281 kph

turn 8 entry:
ferrari 303 kph
mercedes 306 kph

turn 10 entry:
ferrari 299 kph
mercedes 302 kph

back straight vmax:
ferrari 326 kph
mercedes 330 kph

I'd say merc clearly still has an edge.
Where are you getting that data from? But I agree that the Mercedes power unit is still the best. I expect that to be more evident in Baku again.

AnotherAlex
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by AnotherAlex » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:28 pm

Juzh wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:05 am
but in qualifying mercedes was faster than ferrari on every meaningful full throttle section
Doesn't this just confirm that Mercedes have a qualifying mode that is worth 3 or 4 tenths in Q3 (and once or twice during the race?).

TAG
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by TAG » Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:41 pm

WaikeCU wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:38 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:50 am
Interesting comments from Paddy Lowe after the Q;
Has Hamilton got Senna's speed, I asked Lowe?

"Yeah, undoubtedly," he said. "Those great drivers are able to pull out an extraordinary lap. You kind of saw that with Lewis today. Probably on Mercedes' estimations and all their simulations, that time wasn't in the car. They didn't have it on their charts for today. They probably thought Ferrari had them after P3 and then Lewis will go out there and really dig deep.

"They can't do it every Saturday but every now and again they just go out there and something really extraordinary is required and they produce a lap where you go: 'Wow, where on earth did that come from?' And Lewis is certainly one to do that, and so was Ayrton."
Hmm seems someones breaking the laws of Phsysics.. :P
Or just marketing talk. Just giving Lewis more exposure, because he equals a record of a racing legend.
Will the Schumacher family be presenting Hamilton with a helmet of their own when he hits 68?
When you are torn between choices, always pick the one that will make the best story. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Juzh
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by Juzh » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:30 pm

Hammerfist wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:33 pm
Juzh wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:05 am
GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:25 am
Ringo, you are being desperate to prove Ferrari PU is faster than Mercedes, without providing any data whatsoever and relying on someone else' statements. I am not going to debate any further on this, unless you provide some kind of data that differentiates the performance.
We don't know for sure who actually ran more or less downforce, because the data is conflicting (vettel faster in S3 despite being slower on the straights, hamilton faster in S1 despite supposedly running less DF), but in qualifying mercedes was faster than ferrari on every meaningful full throttle section

Start/finish straight vmax:
ferrari 308
mercedes 314

turn 3 entry:
ferrari 265
mercedes 266

turn 6 entry:
ferrari 279 kph
mercedes 281 kph

turn 8 entry:
ferrari 303 kph
mercedes 306 kph

turn 10 entry:
ferrari 299 kph
mercedes 302 kph

back straight vmax:
ferrari 326 kph
mercedes 330 kph

I'd say merc clearly still has an edge.
Where are you getting that data from? But I agree that the Mercedes power unit is still the best. I expect that to be more evident in Baku again.
Mercedes data is from the F1 app, Ferrari is from the onboards. They use the same source for data output, so they're comparable.

Juzh
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by Juzh » Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:31 pm

AnotherAlex wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:28 pm
Juzh wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:05 am
but in qualifying mercedes was faster than ferrari on every meaningful full throttle section
Doesn't this just confirm that Mercedes have a qualifying mode that is worth 3 or 4 tenths in Q3 (and once or twice during the race?).
Probably.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2017 Canadian Grand Prix, Montreal, 9-11 June

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:58 pm

TAG wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:41 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 10:38 am
ringo wrote:
Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:50 am
Interesting comments from Paddy Lowe after the Q;

Hmm seems someones breaking the laws of Phsysics.. :P
Or just marketing talk. Just giving Lewis more exposure, because he equals a record of a racing legend.
Will the Schumacher family be presenting Hamilton with a helmet of their own when he hits 68?
Maybe Vettel because he has a strong relationship with Schumacher. Hamilton might just get a congratulations and he will be fine with that. I think Lewis respects Michael driving but is not fond of Michael's way of team tactics.
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