Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by GhostF1 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:27 am

Sasha wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:46 am
Looks like the new (spec 4.0 for auto press....spec 3.0 at HRD)Heads/Pistons(CC) was pushed back to Tokyo the soonest(could be 2018).There will be updates every race if the updates show performance improvements.

They still need to get this upgrade correct(mapping) and still fix the MGU-H.

Little steps now are better than a very big step and then fall on your face even before the first lap like they did in the past.
Has this delay been confirmed? Or just speculation at the moment?
I can understand the logic behind holding off the hardware improvement for more time to get it right for next year's engine if McLaren has given them a final warning.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:54 am

Sasha wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:46 am
Looks like the new (spec 4.0 for auto press....spec 3.0 at HRD)Heads/Pistons(CC) was pushed back to Tokyo the soonest(could be 2018).There will be updates every race if the updates show performance improvements.

They still need to get this upgrade correct(mapping) and still fix the MGU-H.

Little steps now are better than a very big step and then fall on your face even before the first lap like they did in the past.
Tokyo? You mean Suzuka? It'll be ready by then, I know it. At least they'll have something for that race.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

mkiiw
0
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2016 4:45 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by mkiiw » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:13 am

Sasha wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:46 am
Looks like the new (spec 4.0 for auto press....spec 3.0 at HRD)Heads/Pistons(CC) was pushed back to Tokyo the soonest(could be 2018).There will be updates every race if the updates show performance improvements.

They still need to get this upgrade correct(mapping) and still fix the MGU-H.

Little steps now are better than a very big step and then fall on your face even before the first lap like they did in the past.

Agree, right now they need the same result in designer desk+ dyno + track , otherwise things can goes other way ** (i hope and prey not)

just wondering is the spec 3 (HRD spec 2.5) :
does it have new combustion ?
does the PU vibration is improved ?

I read different places and seems to no one mention above, thanks

GhostF1
39
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by GhostF1 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:44 am

mkiiw wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:13 am
Sasha wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:46 am
Looks like the new (spec 4.0 for auto press....spec 3.0 at HRD)Heads/Pistons(CC) was pushed back to Tokyo the soonest(could be 2018).There will be updates every race if the updates show performance improvements.

They still need to get this upgrade correct(mapping) and still fix the MGU-H.

Little steps now are better than a very big step and then fall on your face even before the first lap like they did in the past.

Agree, right now they need the same result in designer desk+ dyno + track , otherwise things can goes other way ** (i hope and prey not)

just wondering is the spec 3 (HRD spec 2.5) :
does it have new combustion ?
does the PU vibration is improved ?

I read different places and seems to no one mention above, thanks
Based on the official released information, the major change was the fuel injection system to be used in tandem with a new fuel from BP and a revised engine map (Honda make mention the mapping is progressing with each time the car is sent out). They also mention there was various other minor changes, what exactly those changes are is only speculation at this point.

They made inroads with the vibration issue quite a few GP's ago, apparently that is virtually gone, probably a non-issue with this new spec.

-wkst-
3
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by -wkst- » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:40 am

Sasha wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:46 am
Looks like the new (spec 4.0 for auto press....spec 3.0 at HRD)Heads/Pistons(CC) was pushed back to Japan GP the soonest(could be 2018).There will be updates every race if the updates show performance improvements.

They still need to get this upgrade correct(mapping) and still fix the MGU-H.

Little steps now are better than a very big step and then fall on your face even before the first lap like they did in the past.
Thanks for the cheap copy of the AMuS article from last week. "Insider" news again... #-o

Sasha
61
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:43 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Sasha » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:54 am

-wkst- wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:40 am
Sasha wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:46 am
Looks like the new (spec 4.0 for auto press....spec 3.0 at HRD)Heads/Pistons(CC) was pushed back to Japan GP the soonest(could be 2018).There will be updates every race if the updates show performance improvements.

They still need to get this upgrade correct(mapping) and still fix the MGU-H.

Little steps now are better than a very big step and then fall on your face even before the first lap like they did in the past.
Thanks for the cheap copy of the AMuS article from last week. "Insider" news again... #-o
What is AMuS? Is that a cuss word(foul language) or are you insulting me?

Thunder
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:55 am

AMuS = Auto Motor und Sport = German Car and Motorsport Magazine.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/news/

nzjrs
22
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:21 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by nzjrs » Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:25 am

A few bits of info confirming what was suspected, but interesting nevertheless http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/in ... e315be602f

They knew prior to winter testing that the power wasn't there
“So this year’s power unit was built up at the end of last year. In parallel, we also conducted some mono-cylinder tests and some experimental tests on other engines. However, when we fired up the complete engine for the first time, we could see it wasn't delivering the durability or performance in accordance with our expectations. We also found many minor issues. So we needed to modify tiny bits."

“After resolving these smaller elements, we started to test the full concept at the start of this year - call it Spec Zero as it was the initial one - and before the first winter test we confirmed that it ran on the dyno. But of course at that moment we knew that the power was not delivering to our target.
Oil tank rig was insufficient to identify problems
“Many items we could not test on the dyno, so it is normal that we need to check some functions in the car. The oil tank is one of the biggest items, so we have a rig for the oil tank but we cannot recreate the same types of G forces and conditions as in the car. Of course, by design we have to consider the actual car situation in theory, but sometimes it is not always the same situation so that is why we had some issues with the oil tank first.
I could read this paragraph as confirmation their 'full chassis dyno' either doesn't exist, or lacks gearbox and wheels...
“The second issue was down to the vibrations. On the dyno, the model is stiffer and heavier, so it doesn’t create any synchronised vibrations, but on the car - with the gearbox and the tyres - there is a much lower level of inertia. Low inertia does not always create vibrations but it’s completely different from the dyno and that’s why we suffered a huge vibration on the car. Of course, we were aware some level of vibration would come in the car but it was much bigger than we expected.”
A combustion concept change takes 6 months, but spec 3 (Baku) was only started in March. Interpret that as you wish to wrt. the magnitude of the Spec 3 change. I.e. Spec 3 is not actually Spec 3 (new combustion concept), as said by Wazari etc - where the true upgrade comes after the winter break.
“It depends on the items - something like the combustion system takes longer for testing and confirmation. So we cannot set a target just for two weeks later, normally such an upgrade takes something more like half a year.

But it is also important to make those kinds of developments as well, so actually the Spec 3 power unit is like that. This development started in March, more than three months ago.”

McL-H
6
Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 3:18 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by McL-H » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:44 am

nzjrs wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:25 am
A few bits of info confirming what was suspected, but interesting nevertheless http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/in ... e315be602f

They knew prior to winter testing that the power wasn't there
“So this year’s power unit was built up at the end of last year. In parallel, we also conducted some mono-cylinder tests and some experimental tests on other engines. However, when we fired up the complete engine for the first time, we could see it wasn't delivering the durability or performance in accordance with our expectations. We also found many minor issues. So we needed to modify tiny bits."

“After resolving these smaller elements, we started to test the full concept at the start of this year - call it Spec Zero as it was the initial one - and before the first winter test we confirmed that it ran on the dyno. But of course at that moment we knew that the power was not delivering to our target.
Oil tank rig was insufficient to identify problems
“Many items we could not test on the dyno, so it is normal that we need to check some functions in the car. The oil tank is one of the biggest items, so we have a rig for the oil tank but we cannot recreate the same types of G forces and conditions as in the car. Of course, by design we have to consider the actual car situation in theory, but sometimes it is not always the same situation so that is why we had some issues with the oil tank first.
I could read this paragraph as confirmation their 'full chassis dyno' either doesn't exist, or lacks gearbox and wheels...
“The second issue was down to the vibrations. On the dyno, the model is stiffer and heavier, so it doesn’t create any synchronised vibrations, but on the car - with the gearbox and the tyres - there is a much lower level of inertia. Low inertia does not always create vibrations but it’s completely different from the dyno and that’s why we suffered a huge vibration on the car. Of course, we were aware some level of vibration would come in the car but it was much bigger than we expected.”
A combustion concept change takes 6 months, but spec 3 (Baku) was only started in March. Interpret that as you wish to wrt. the magnitude of the Spec 3 change. I.e. Spec 3 is not actually Spec 3 (new combustion concept), as said by Wazari etc - where the true upgrade comes after the winter break.
“It depends on the items - something like the combustion system takes longer for testing and confirmation. So we cannot set a target just for two weeks later, normally such an upgrade takes something more like half a year.

But it is also important to make those kinds of developments as well, so actually the Spec 3 power unit is like that. This development started in March, more than three months ago.”
Thanks a lot for sharing. Really shocking to read this, it shows the complexity of this engine formula yet again, but also Honda's incompetence. How is it possible that after 2 very poor seasons, in which Honda kept saying they "knew what had to be done to become competitive", they develop an engine with all of the information they have, yet to conclude that "it didn't perform as we expected". Great engine designers they must be having there at Sakura.

McLaren is done anyway. Each year they are uncompetitive they lose money, short-term (prize money) long-term money (sponsors). Reducing their chances of getting back to the top. Top personnel will walk out and they won't be able to make competitive cars again. Top drivers won't want a McLaren seat anymore. It already isn't regarded as a top team any longer. More on-par with Williams. Thus, reducing fan base. They can risk having another year with Honda, hoping for the best. Or they can go to another engine manufacturer, knowing they'll get lesser material. Anyway you picture it, McLaren is finished. Thanks a lot Honda. What a victory.

-wkst-
3
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:55 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by -wkst- » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:52 am

Thunders wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:55 am
AMuS = Auto Motor und Sport = German Car and Motorsport Magazine.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/news/
I don't think he needs a link...

Oonnnn
0
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:54 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Oonnnn » Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:59 am

Hasegawa-san said by the end of last year that they took a massive gamble in all areas of development plus the change to BP oil and fuel supplier. We don't know for sure what gamble did they take or if the oil supplier affected any of their development. One thing for sure, that gamble was a bad one.

They might not be incompetence, just bad timing and top level management screw-ups, that's what I was saying.

ZakB
-7
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:29 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ZakB » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:04 am

McL-H wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 10:44 am
nzjrs wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:25 am
A few bits of info confirming what was suspected, but interesting nevertheless http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/in ... e315be602f

They knew prior to winter testing that the power wasn't there
“So this year’s power unit was built up at the end of last year. In parallel, we also conducted some mono-cylinder tests and some experimental tests on other engines. However, when we fired up the complete engine for the first time, we could see it wasn't delivering the durability or performance in accordance with our expectations. We also found many minor issues. So we needed to modify tiny bits."

“After resolving these smaller elements, we started to test the full concept at the start of this year - call it Spec Zero as it was the initial one - and before the first winter test we confirmed that it ran on the dyno. But of course at that moment we knew that the power was not delivering to our target.
Oil tank rig was insufficient to identify problems
“Many items we could not test on the dyno, so it is normal that we need to check some functions in the car. The oil tank is one of the biggest items, so we have a rig for the oil tank but we cannot recreate the same types of G forces and conditions as in the car. Of course, by design we have to consider the actual car situation in theory, but sometimes it is not always the same situation so that is why we had some issues with the oil tank first.
I could read this paragraph as confirmation their 'full chassis dyno' either doesn't exist, or lacks gearbox and wheels...
“The second issue was down to the vibrations. On the dyno, the model is stiffer and heavier, so it doesn’t create any synchronised vibrations, but on the car - with the gearbox and the tyres - there is a much lower level of inertia. Low inertia does not always create vibrations but it’s completely different from the dyno and that’s why we suffered a huge vibration on the car. Of course, we were aware some level of vibration would come in the car but it was much bigger than we expected.”
A combustion concept change takes 6 months, but spec 3 (Baku) was only started in March. Interpret that as you wish to wrt. the magnitude of the Spec 3 change. I.e. Spec 3 is not actually Spec 3 (new combustion concept), as said by Wazari etc - where the true upgrade comes after the winter break.
“It depends on the items - something like the combustion system takes longer for testing and confirmation. So we cannot set a target just for two weeks later, normally such an upgrade takes something more like half a year.

But it is also important to make those kinds of developments as well, so actually the Spec 3 power unit is like that. This development started in March, more than three months ago.”
Thanks a lot for sharing. Really shocking to read this, it shows the complexity of this engine formula yet again, but also Honda's incompetence. How is it possible that after 2 very poor seasons, in which Honda kept saying they "knew what had to be done to become competitive", they develop an engine with all of the information they have, yet to conclude that "it didn't perform as we expected". Great engine designers they must be having there at Sakura.

McLaren is done anyway. Each year they are uncompetitive they lose money, short-term (prize money) long-term money (sponsors). Reducing their chances of getting back to the top. Top personnel will walk out and they won't be able to make competitive cars again. Top drivers won't want a McLaren seat anymore. It already isn't regarded as a top team any longer. More on-par with Williams. Thus, reducing fan base. They can risk having another year with Honda, hoping for the best. Or they can go to another engine manufacturer, knowing they'll get lesser material. Anyway you picture it, McLaren is finished. Thanks a lot Honda. What a victory.
Oh please stop crying, this happened before and it will happen again. McLaren isn't on-par with Williams and they will never be. McLaren is still regarded as a top team, which is also the reason why we constantly speak about them. The biggest problem they have is that they don't produce their own engine like Ferrari.

FW17
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by FW17 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:06 pm

Cosworth has gone into -ve valuation.

fellowhoodlums
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by fellowhoodlums » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:25 pm

Interesting article posted there. Most of it we had all already pieced together but it's good to get it out there.

Spec 3 not fully exploited yet from what I interperet but the hardware in place and used from Bakku onwards. Full potential still being developed (which is the Sept/Oct timeframe Alonso talks about for his future decision and fits in with the 6 months from March comment).

Keep the faith.

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:39 pm

If everything goes according to schedule then nothing can go according to plan. 6 months on from March would be September, sometime around Malaysia or Singapore. Suzuka is at the beginning of October, Mexico I think is the last October race. The timeline makes sense, they may yet have a eureka moment with regards to fuel timing and delivery in the mean time.

Why mapping is a big deal? Because to get max power from the combustion requires very precise fuel injection, in precise timing and quantities during the engine cycles. Getting it wrong means instant kablammo or you compromise so much that you gain nothing from it.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee