2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
RedNEO
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by RedNEO » Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:36 am

etusch wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:25 am
McL-H wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:08 am


This is the McLaren-Honda thread, not the Stoffel Vandoorne thread. It's not a Belgian website either. But if you insist: finally, after half a season, Vandoorne showed maturity and good pace at Silverstone. Still, there are bigger problems, since one McLaren again didn't finish the race and the other was fighting for a single point and lost it. This team should be fighting for podiums, and until it does, complaining is without a doubt what you'll find here. And with little progression from Honda at all, those complaints aren't going to dissappear.

Honda is destroying McLaren. In fact, I can't see McLaren coming back to previous form anymore. Their budget slims every year they are driving with an uncompetitive engine, and are soon to be the new Williams: former top team.
Honda is keeping mclaren alive. You have to understand this. İf project would work it would be perfect. but unfortunately they are not competitive now. so it is just good.
Can you see what would be when they still use merc PU. Again no sponsor, no victory of WDC/WCC with engine bill. 2nd wcc finish at 2015 was best possible. 20156-17 seasons 3d maybe, maybe not
Mclaren is not going to be Williams because of Honda partnership. As soon as mclaren lost being work team they are a new Williams
If Honda was actually keeping McLaren alive they wouldn't be talking about going with a different engine provider internally for 2018.

Jef Patat
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Jef Patat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:10 pm

McL-H wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:08 am
This is the McLaren-Honda thread, not the Stoffel Vandoorne thread. It's not a Belgian website either.
Where did that come from? Did I say anything in that direction? Stoffel is part of the team. If he improves/matures, the team benefits. At the beginning of the season they told him to take the setup of Fernando. Now he and his engineers are allowed to have their own setup. He's giving feedback that allows the car to evolve. He's still rookie, but the less rookie he becomes the better for the team.

IMHO the point was lost due to the team, they lost it in the pitstop which is a shame. It has been said before, the pitstops are not good enough. Before it didn't matter but there seems to be overall progress and now it does.

People will always be complaining and so am I. Hoping for some discussion instead of senseless predictions.
McL-H wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:08 am
Honda is destroying McLaren. In fact, I can't see McLaren coming back to previous form anymore. Their budget slims every year they are driving with an uncompetitive engine, and are soon to be the new Williams: former top team.
Please get your facts together:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128241

Total budget includes several sources, own budget, sponsors, prize money, ... But then again, some drivers are more expensive, some need to pay for the engine, others need to develop it, ... It's not that simple.

ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ZakB » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:10 pm

It's funny how some of these 'experts' here are still comparing McLaren with Williams. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by diffuser » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:16 pm

Jef Patat wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:34 am
Indeed, this used to be a fun place. Now it's mainly weak future predictions based on... well, mainly on their own interpretations of reality. They should have their separate thread.

http://i0.wp.com/162.144.93.146/~univet ... C604&w=640

I would have hoped to at least have some discussion about how good the progress of the car is on this track, the rithm and maturity of Stoffel, not losing time on fights he can't win, getting a safe start, fending of Massa for so long, losing the points in the pit, being able to hold on after it,...
Agreed.. sucks to be us.

diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by diffuser » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:19 pm

RedNEO wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:36 am
etusch wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:25 am
McL-H wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:08 am


This is the McLaren-Honda thread, not the Stoffel Vandoorne thread. It's not a Belgian website either. But if you insist: finally, after half a season, Vandoorne showed maturity and good pace at Silverstone. Still, there are bigger problems, since one McLaren again didn't finish the race and the other was fighting for a single point and lost it. This team should be fighting for podiums, and until it does, complaining is without a doubt what you'll find here. And with little progression from Honda at all, those complaints aren't going to dissappear.

Honda is destroying McLaren. In fact, I can't see McLaren coming back to previous form anymore. Their budget slims every year they are driving with an uncompetitive engine, and are soon to be the new Williams: former top team.
Honda is keeping mclaren alive. You have to understand this. İf project would work it would be perfect. but unfortunately they are not competitive now. so it is just good.
Can you see what would be when they still use merc PU. Again no sponsor, no victory of WDC/WCC with engine bill. 2nd wcc finish at 2015 was best possible. 20156-17 seasons 3d maybe, maybe not
Mclaren is not going to be Williams because of Honda partnership. As soon as mclaren lost being work team they are a new Williams
If Honda was actually keeping McLaren alive they wouldn't be talking about going with a different engine provider internally for 2018.
Ever heard the expression "Talk is cheap" ?

diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by diffuser » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:38 pm

To me 1 bad pit stop and Vandoorne's driving are minor issues. if we were in Ferrari's position, it would be a concern but being where we are ....it's just stuff we need to work on.

We've had a fairly good weekend. The PU improvements are working. We have a Fuel pressure issue we need to find out the cause for but aside from that onward an upward.

Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Big Mangalhit » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:41 pm

ZakB wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:10 pm
It's funny how some of these 'experts' here are still comparing McLaren with Williams. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
You're right since the new pu rules williams made 756 points and Mclaren 286. There is no comparison.

On a more serious note. Mclaren are not Williams solely because of Honda, because of them they have a work status and while right now it seems awful they still have the potential of being champions someday. On the other hand, Williams is consistently in the midfield but are tied by mercedes. Right now they are far better than Mclaren but have no potential to be challenging for wins. If Mclaren ditches Honda then yes they will be the new williams, and may even be surprised to find themselves behind them.

Singabule
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Singabule » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:44 pm

MCL bad pit stop caused by blown wheel nut. Wonder why they did not adopt Simple design instead, not much to gain using blown wheel.

etusch
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by etusch » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:46 pm

Big Mangalhit wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:41 pm
ZakB wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:10 pm
It's funny how some of these 'experts' here are still comparing McLaren with Williams. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
You're right since the new pu rules williams made 756 points and Mclaren 286. There is no comparison.

On a more serious note. Mclaren are not Williams solely because of Honda, because of them they have a work status and while right now it seems awful they still have the potential of being champions someday. On the other hand, Williams is consistently in the midfield but are tied by mercedes. Right now they are far better than Mclaren but have no potential to be challenging for wins. If Mclaren ditches Honda then yes they will be the new williams, and may even be surprised to find themselves behind them.
Despite of having merc PU,Williams was behind of mclaren until bad pit stop. So Williams has nothing. Williams is going backward everyday and every month passed.

Jef Patat
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Jef Patat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:56 pm

Singabule wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:44 pm
MCL bad pit stop caused by blown wheel nut. Wonder why they did not adopt Simple design instead, not much to gain using blown wheel.
Really, got a source? Wouldn't that have taken more time? It wasn't that bad. Verstappen had a wheelnut issue.

Edit: Vandoorne 1.7s slower than Massa: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/07/16/2 ... pit-stops/
Last edited by Jef Patat on Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Big Mangalhit » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:59 pm

etusch wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:46 pm
Big Mangalhit wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:41 pm
ZakB wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:10 pm
It's funny how some of these 'experts' here are still comparing McLaren with Williams. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
You're right since the new pu rules williams made 756 points and Mclaren 286. There is no comparison.

On a more serious note. Mclaren are not Williams solely because of Honda, because of them they have a work status and while right now it seems awful they still have the potential of being champions someday. On the other hand, Williams is consistently in the midfield but are tied by mercedes. Right now they are far better than Mclaren but have no potential to be challenging for wins. If Mclaren ditches Honda then yes they will be the new williams, and may even be surprised to find themselves behind them.
Despite of having merc PU,Williams was behind of mclaren until bad pit stop. So Williams has nothing. Williams is going backward everyday and every month passed.
Yet they finished ahead and got the point, and two races ago got a podium. But that is not the point. What I'm saying is that they are stuck in this limbo of average results while mclaren are stuck on a roll of terrible results but have the potential for good results.

Jef Patat
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Jef Patat » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:04 pm

Well, to be fair, every season they seem to climb up. Only to start the next season at the bottom again. Their current position, though not satisfying for a MCL fan, is better than the start of the season.

alexx_88
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by alexx_88 » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:25 pm

Ok, the decision they're going to have to make in October is a very interesting one. In the end, their objective is to have the fastest PU + chassis package on the grid. The reasoning behind being a works team is that, if you're not, you rely solely on having a significantly better chassis than the works team who produced the PU, as they have an advantage in terms of integrating the PU in their overall concept.

Anyway, so what's Mclaren choice?

First option is to get a customer Mercedes/Ferrari engine. Take a slight penalty in the PU department compared to the works team and have to outdevelop them in the chassis department. Tall order, but possible.

Second option is continuing with Honda. The only way this option is better than the first is if the Honda PU turns out better overall (packaging, performance) than the Mercedes/Ferrari PU. At this stage in time, I highly doubt it. Not just for this year, but next year as well. I mean, look at Renault, they've been there or thereabouts for this entire formula, but never really got the breakthrough to allow Redbull to compete for the championship.

In the end it's simple maths:

Customer PU + Mclaren chassis vs Honda PU + Mclaren chassis + Honda development money. I don't think that the money Honda is putting as sponsorship in Mclaren offsets the current delta in performance.

etusch
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by etusch » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:43 pm

We don't expect better PU than merc /Ferrari. İf they bring this year's Renault level compared top PUs with same level chassis with top team whichever the team, it is very good level for next years mclaren. I am not sure if McLaren can do that for next year but if you expect that why you don't expect same for Honda too.?

ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ZakB » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:46 pm

alexx_88 wrote:
Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:25 pm
Ok, the decision they're going to have to make in October is a very interesting one. In the end, their objective is to have the fastest PU + chassis package on the grid. The reasoning behind being a works team is that, if you're not, you rely solely on having a significantly better chassis than the works team who produced the PU, as they have an advantage in terms of integrating the PU in their overall concept.

Anyway, so what's Mclaren choice?

First option is to get a customer Mercedes/Ferrari engine. Take a slight penalty in the PU department compared to the works team and have to outdevelop them in the chassis department. Tall order, but possible.

Second option is continuing with Honda. The only way this option is better than the first is if the Honda PU turns out better overall (packaging, performance) than the Mercedes/Ferrari PU. At this stage in time, I highly doubt it. Not just for this year, but next year as well. I mean, look at Renault, they've been there or thereabouts for this entire formula, but never really got the breakthrough to allow Redbull to compete for the championship.

In the end it's simple maths:

Customer PU + Mclaren chassis vs Honda PU + Mclaren chassis + Honda development money. I don't think that the money Honda is putting as sponsorship in Mclaren offsets the current delta in performance.
McLaren driving around with Ferrari engines, this will not happen. I'm also pretty sure the shareholders will increase McLaren's budget when they leave Honda, although I don't think it will happen. They will never win with a normal customer deal and Mercedes has no interested to give them a better deal compared to Williams and Force India. So they can choose to be the 4th fastest team with paid Mercedes engines or stick with free Honda engines and (probably) be the 4th fastest next year with the possibility to grow thanks to the works deal.