2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

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F1NAC
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by F1NAC » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:57 pm

Vasconia wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:44 pm
skoop wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:01 pm
Are Ferrari bringing any engine updates to thes race?
I read that Force India will get only one new enigne which will ne given to the driver with the most points which would be Perez. However I read somewhere that maybe Ocon will get the new engine because Perez cause the collision in Spa. Are there any updates on that? Or was it just the typical drama made up by the press?
There was a delay with the new update(intentional if I am not wrong), but I dont think Singapur is the best track to bring a PU update.
They could introduce new diffuser that they were testing in hungaroring. Because of high speed nature from previous 2 races I expect them to bring it here.

atanatizante
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by atanatizante » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:46 pm

Some explanations behind Merc form at Monza and probably a continuous trend for Singapore : https://www.motorsport.com/f1/video/mai ... 97278/?s=2
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Bill_Kar
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Bill_Kar » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:15 am

atanatizante wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:46 pm
Some explanations behind Merc form at Monza and probably a continuous trend for Singapore : https://www.motorsport.com/f1/video/mai ... 97278/?s=2
Continuous trend because of the better efficiency of the diffuser?

TAG
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by TAG » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:07 am

And just like that there's rain in the forecast for race day, pretty high probability as of now, the next couple of days worth of developing forecasts will be interesting.
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ringo
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by ringo » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:27 am

This track is usually hard on the cars because of the temperatures. Is it hard on engines as well?
I don't know what to expect from Mclaren Honda in terms of capitalizing on the slow speed corners.
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Vasconia
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Vasconia » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:42 am

F1NAC wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:57 pm

They could introduce new diffuser that they were testing in hungaroring. Because of high speed nature from previous 2 races I expect them to bring it here.
Absolutely, its a good track to bring those sort of updates. I have not found any about it, tough.

TAG
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by TAG » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:47 pm

Don't normally make race predictions, but I'm going to go out on a limb and predict a SC appearance this Sunday.
When you are torn between choices, always pick the one that will make the best story. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

f1316
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by f1316 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:58 am

Bill_Kar wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:15 am
atanatizante wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:46 pm
Some explanations behind Merc form at Monza and probably a continuous trend for Singapore : https://www.motorsport.com/f1/video/mai ... 97278/?s=2
Continuous trend because of the better efficiency of the diffuser?
From what Scarbs says, it's the exact opposite of an onward trend for this season - he's focusing on their stability under braking from high speed and says this is the last time we'll see this kind of setup.

What I didn't understand was that the narrative seemed to be around Mercedes able to run a smaller wing because they were generating more downforce from elsewhere on the car; but I think it's evident that they were able to retain a higher downforce (spoon shaped) rear wing than Ferrari (and much more than Red Bull). This still implies that it's their PU advantage that allows them to sacrifice drag for downforce in a way that their opponents cannnot (although take the point that the low rake philosophy is also more tailored to this kind of one-off, high speed track).

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:15 am

f1316 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:58 am
This still implies that it's their PU advantage that allows them to sacrifice drag for downforce in a way that their opponents cannnot (although take the point that the low rake philosophy is also more tailored to this kind of one-off, high speed track).
Mercedes have been quite clear that the design philosophy is one of efficient downforce. This means an excellent L/D which means they can.run more downforce for a given drag. Others have gone for more outright downforce, others for low drag. Mercedes have been open that their philosophy means certain circuits, including Singapore, need a more aggressive philosophy and thus they struggle.

The continual "it's all down to the PU" is getting a bit thin now. The Mercedes is just, quite simply, a brilliant all-round package. That's what is required to win titles.
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marvin78
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by marvin78 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:24 am

The PU gives them the advantage not to have to make compromises in different areas. With a PU that is much better, than the others it is much "easier" to have an excellent package. So you could say: The PU is the central factor.

f1316
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by f1316 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:08 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:15 am
f1316 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:58 am
This still implies that it's their PU advantage that allows them to sacrifice drag for downforce in a way that their opponents cannnot (although take the point that the low rake philosophy is also more tailored to this kind of one-off, high speed track).
Mercedes have been quite clear that the design philosophy is one of efficient downforce. This means an excellent L/D which means they can.run more downforce for a given drag. Others have gone for more outright downforce, others for low drag. Mercedes have been open that their philosophy means certain circuits, including Singapore, need a more aggressive philosophy and thus they struggle.

The continual "it's all down to the PU" is getting a bit thin now. The Mercedes is just, quite simply, a brilliant all-round package. That's what is required to win titles.
Ok, so my question is really quite simple: were Mercedes running a bigger rear wing than Ferrari at Monza (it's very obvious they were running a bigger one than RB)?

If yes, then we can all draw our own conclusions, but I'm just saying that the video seemed to imply they had trimmed the drag from the rear wing vs. rivals and I don't see that.

ChrisDanger
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by ChrisDanger » Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:01 pm




drunkf1fan
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by drunkf1fan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:24 pm

marvin78 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:24 am
The PU gives them the advantage not to have to make compromises in different areas. With a PU that is much better, than the others it is much "easier" to have an excellent package. So you could say: The PU is the central factor.
Not really, that is neither here nor there, they didn't know there engine was better or worse than others. You're mixing up separate things and linking them.

When you design a car you can design any kind of car you want but the two more normal designs are higher downforce that struggles for low drag and high top speed such as RBR for well, since 2009 at least. The other more normal design is lower downforce, lower drag, higher top speed but often struggle at higher downforce tracks and Williams is a fairly extreme example of that end of the spectrum. Then you have the Mercedes style design, one of versatility, trying to get as optimal airflow as possible to have a car able to run efficient downforce, maybe unable to get the very highest downforce levels but able to bolt on downforce dramatically better than a William's style design and able to run lower drag far better than a RBR style design.

That is unrelated to the engine, that is just how you want to attack your car's philosophy. ALl three styles of cars have weaknesses and strengths and the engine usually hurts one side while helping the other. Weaker engine, higher downforce lets you be more competitive at Hungary/Singapore, strong engine, lower drag style will do even better at low downforce tracks.

A good or bad engine means that regardless of which type of car you have, you make specific decisions per race on how you set up the car. Weak engine then RBR take off more downforce than they'd like at Monza, strong engine and they'd take off less downforce than normal. Williams can tack on a little more downforce or have even higher top speed depending on strong or weak engine.

Mercedes simply has an amazing versatile design and it has nothing to do with the engine, if the engine was worse they would just have to set up with less/more downforce at various tracks. The reason most teams tend to go more for the low drag or high downforce designs is making a car equally good at both is simply more difficult but if you can make one as such, you have the best of everything with very few weak tracks in the year. Mercedes has far fewer weak tracks than RBR, Ferrari or Williams have.

Mercedes for me have easily the best chassis on the grid, others have a bit more downforce but are far less able to run well at lower downforce tracks and others have lower drag, but not much lower and those cars are very much weaker at higher downforce tracks. Mercedes would be right up there with a Ferrari engine and though this year the fight would likely be closer if they were running Ferrari engines, in the past 3 years with a Ferrari engine they would still imo have dominated as Ferrari has been making weak chassis's before this season.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:30 pm

f1316 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:08 pm

Ok, so my question is really quite simple: were Mercedes running a bigger rear wing than Ferrari at Monza (it's very obvious they were running a bigger one than RB)?

If yes, then we can all draw our own conclusions, but I'm just saying that the video seemed to imply they had trimmed the drag from the rear wing vs. rivals and I don't see that.
But the point is that if the Mercedes car has a lower drag level than Ferrari's, they can afford to run more downforce without losing out on top speed.

The Ferrari might make more total downforce when in Singapore mode than Mercedes but it makes more drag too. At Singapore that isn't a problem because of the nature of the track. They can bolt on the downforce and be quicker in the corners and thus the lap.

At a fast track like Monza, the drag penalty of the Ferrari means they have to run less downforce than Mercedes to maintain a similar top speed on the long straights. They immediately lose out on lap time in that case.

On slow/medium top speed tracks e.g. Monaco, Singapore, Ferrari's philosophy wins because drag isn't an issue as top speeds are low. On higher top speed tracks e.g. Silverstone, Spa, Mercedes's philosophy wins because they can run slightly more downforce without loss of top speed.

The season will be determined, all other things being equal, on which philosophy is better suited to the most number of circuits in the season. Indeed, so well matched are they that the season is likely going to be determined by things like reliability, accidents etc.
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f1316
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

Post by f1316 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:20 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:30 pm
f1316 wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:08 pm

Ok, so my question is really quite simple: were Mercedes running a bigger rear wing than Ferrari at Monza (it's very obvious they were running a bigger one than RB)?

If yes, then we can all draw our own conclusions, but I'm just saying that the video seemed to imply they had trimmed the drag from the rear wing vs. rivals and I don't see that.
But the point is that if the Mercedes car has a lower drag level than Ferrari's, they can afford to run more downforce without losing out on top speed.

The Ferrari might make more total downforce when in Singapore mode than Mercedes but it makes more drag too. At Singapore that isn't a problem because of the nature of the track. They can bolt on the downforce and be quicker in the corners and thus the lap.

At a fast track like Monza, the drag penalty of the Ferrari means they have to run less downforce than Mercedes to maintain a similar top speed on the long straights. They immediately lose out on lap time in that case.

On slow/medium top speed tracks e.g. Monaco, Singapore, Ferrari's philosophy wins because drag isn't an issue as top speeds are low. On higher top speed tracks e.g. Silverstone, Spa, Mercedes's philosophy wins because they can run slightly more downforce without loss of top speed.

The season will be determined, all other things being equal, on which philosophy is better suited to the most number of circuits in the season. Indeed, so well matched are they that the season is likely going to be determined by things like reliability, accidents etc.
I don't disagree with that.

My point was that, contrary to the video that seemed to be implying they could run less wing because the rest of the car produced enough downforce, the reality is more that they can run *more* wing because they have less drag elsewhere.

...And they do also have the most powerful engine, let's be honest :P