2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Mad
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Mad » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:37 am

Mclaren might get back with Honda, who knows. Alonso will be gone by then and the situation will calm down a bit. Rumors of Porche buying Redbull team/Supplying Redbull with engines is gathering pace, so if Mclaren is looking for works partnership with Porche beyond 2020, they might be left disappointed. And unless the Bahraini owners pour tons of money, they won't be making their own engines. Their Roadcar V8's are modified Nissans.

Toyota will be leaving WEC due to lack of competition and head over to FE, Honda might take a different route and buy Torro-Rosso to be a Manufacturer in F1. More Promotion, More money from FIA and they wont have to put up with a whining "Partner"

dren
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by dren » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:04 pm

hemichromis wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:09 am
I remained sceptical about the split until Bernie was featured in F1i:

"The Renault deal is all done. Alonso staying is super news," said Ecclestone.

"But I can't see why McLaren will be any happier with Renault than they are with Honda.

"It wasn't Honda's fault things didn't work out, it was McLaren's.

"Every day they had a fight about everything, instead of working with them, which was a little bit stupid."

http://en.f1i.com/news/279497-279497.html

If Bernie believes it's all done....
That's a bit telling. Especially the last two quotes.
Honda!

dren
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by dren » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:06 pm

This PU swap is reminiscent of what Red Bull tried to do when they wanted to dump Renault, but had to come begging back. It's kind of ironic that the PU swap is being made for a Renault PU, now.

I'd love to see the Honda unit become competitive next year.
Honda!

dren
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by dren » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:08 pm

Wazari wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:43 am
Probably a good move for both if true. It will save Honda about $160 million not including the free PU's. It will be interesting if anyone steps up to cover that gap or if McLaren is going to run a much leaner budget compared to this year.

Well we won't see the Spec 4 PU this year...........
I think it'll be a good move at this point. The relationship seemed strained the further it progressed. I'm hoping the environment at TR is a better one.

I'm guessing the Spec 4 release this year was a bid to convince Mclaren of next year's potential. No need to rush things, now.
Honda!

Nonserviam85
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Nonserviam85 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:18 pm

dren wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:04 pm
[quote=hemichromis post_id=717319 time=<a href="tel:1505290169">1505290169</a> user_id=34832]
I remained sceptical about the split until Bernie was featured in F1i:

"The Renault deal is all done. Alonso staying is super news," said Ecclestone.

"But I can't see why McLaren will be any happier with Renault than they are with Honda.

"It wasn't Honda's fault things didn't work out, it was McLaren's.

"Every day they had a fight about everything, instead of working with them, which was a little bit stupid."

http://en.f1i.com/news/279497-279497.html

If Bernie believes it's all done....
That's a bit telling. Especially the last two quotes.
[/quote]
dren wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:04 pm
hemichromis wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:09 am
I remained sceptical about the split until Bernie was featured in F1i:

"The Renault deal is all done. Alonso staying is super news," said Ecclestone.

"But I can't see why McLaren will be any happier with Renault than they are with Honda.

"It wasn't Honda's fault things didn't work out, it was McLaren's.

"Every day they had a fight about everything, instead of working with them, which was a little bit stupid."

http://en.f1i.com/news/279497-279497.html

If Bernie believes it's all done....
That's a bit telling. Especially the last two quotes.
I believe this kinda proves why Wazari was suggesting that McLaren will not win anything with Boullier...

ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ZakB » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm

For all the Honda fans I suggest you read this, instead of basing your comments on thin air and McLaren hate.
But pre-season testing revealed serious shortcomings. The Honda engine was leaky, unreliable, and less powerful than the old design. It also shook uncontrollably, as the transmission produced terrible vibrations that weren't predicted during winter testing on Honda's Sakura dyno.
They drew up a three-stage development plan to achieve this by an agreed deadline. The first step was scheduled for May's Spanish Grand Prix, the second for the Canadian GP in June, the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output - was meant to arrive in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix.

Honda brought updates to each of these races, but they were not sufficient. As its F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa admitted in the FIA press conference at Spa, Honda "failed" in its task, and was now in breach of the development plan agreed with McLaren, opening the door for separation and severance.
Renault said it was open to a partnership with McLaren on the same terms as Red Bull, and McLaren can count on the bonus of already dealing with Renault's fuel and lubricants supplier BP. McLaren also believes it can help Renault technically, having assisted development of certain elements of Honda's energy recovery systems.
Anticipating that Honda-Ilmor wouldn't succeed in its task, McLaren continued efforts to secure a supply of customer engines from Mercedes. The F1 team was supposedly reticent to agree to this, fearing an Alonso-driven McLaren would be a threat to its own prospects at certain tracks. Nevertheless, feeling it had the support of the Mercedes board, McLaren was confident.
McLaren estimates that a fully operational Renault engine, with BP fuel and works mapping, would produce 5bhp more than a current customer Mercedes engine, which it reckons is 15kw (20bhp) down on the works engines owing to software mapping it believes Mercedes only makes available for Hamilton and team-mate Valtteri Bottas in qualifying.
McLaren only wanted results, and wanted them yesterday, which added pressure on Honda and increased the likelihood of mistakes. Honda wanted to be better, but could never progress quickly or competently enough to satisfy McLaren's demands.

Once trust was lost, there was no real hope of reconciliation. So now, finally, after nearly three seasons of abject disappointment and underachievement, McLaren-Honda's second marriage is over.

A match made in heaven it ultimately was not. Rather a tale of great expectations that never came close to being fulfilled.
Doesn't sound that bad, does it. Everyone wins.

McLaren gets a works engine (not deal)
McLaren keeps Alonso
BP can develop fuel for two teams
Toro Rosso gets funding and free engines
Honda can develop without pressure
Honda can move over to Red Bull if they get their act together

cplchanb
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by cplchanb » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:10 pm

Well.....back in 2014 it was rhe same rosey pre season talk about Honda... Being a match made in heaven and back to the championship days...
All the claims about Renault being bwtter than merc have no basis because they assume merc will sit still next year.

Thw first quote is pretty telling as well in terms of the problem being shared. Honda didn't expect the mcl gearbox to be that ragged and i suspect that that problem was rather serious and fundamental.

RedNEO
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by RedNEO » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:21 pm

ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
For all the Honda fans I suggest you read this, instead of basing your comments on thin air and McLaren hate.
But pre-season testing revealed serious shortcomings. The Honda engine was leaky, unreliable, and less powerful than the old design. It also shook uncontrollably, as the transmission produced terrible vibrations that weren't predicted during winter testing on Honda's Sakura dyno.
They drew up a three-stage development plan to achieve this by an agreed deadline. The first step was scheduled for May's Spanish Grand Prix, the second for the Canadian GP in June, the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output - was meant to arrive in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix.

Honda brought updates to each of these races, but they were not sufficient. As its F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa admitted in the FIA press conference at Spa, Honda "failed" in its task, and was now in breach of the development plan agreed with McLaren, opening the door for separation and severance.
Renault said it was open to a partnership with McLaren on the same terms as Red Bull, and McLaren can count on the bonus of already dealing with Renault's fuel and lubricants supplier BP. McLaren also believes it can help Renault technically, having assisted development of certain elements of Honda's energy recovery systems.
Anticipating that Honda-Ilmor wouldn't succeed in its task, McLaren continued efforts to secure a supply of customer engines from Mercedes. The F1 team was supposedly reticent to agree to this, fearing an Alonso-driven McLaren would be a threat to its own prospects at certain tracks. Nevertheless, feeling it had the support of the Mercedes board, McLaren was confident.
McLaren estimates that a fully operational Renault engine, with BP fuel and works mapping, would produce 5bhp more than a current customer Mercedes engine, which it reckons is 15kw (20bhp) down on the works engines owing to software mapping it believes Mercedes only makes available for Hamilton and team-mate Valtteri Bottas in qualifying.
McLaren only wanted results, and wanted them yesterday, which added pressure on Honda and increased the likelihood of mistakes. Honda wanted to be better, but could never progress quickly or competently enough to satisfy McLaren's demands.

Once trust was lost, there was no real hope of reconciliation. So now, finally, after nearly three seasons of abject disappointment and underachievement, McLaren-Honda's second marriage is over.

A match made in heaven it ultimately was not. Rather a tale of great expectations that never came close to being fulfilled.
Doesn't sound that bad, does it. Everyone wins.

McLaren gets a works engine (not deal)
McLaren keeps Alonso
BP can develop fuel for two teams
Toro Rosso gets funding and free engines
Honda can develop without pressure
Honda can move over to Red Bull if they get their act together
Thanks for sharing with everyone. I'm just so relieved that McLaren did it. Also kudos to Renault for being good sports about it! Bring on 2018!

nzjrs
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by nzjrs » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:29 pm

ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
They drew up a three-stage development plan to achieve this by an agreed deadline. The first step was scheduled for May's Spanish Grand Prix, the second for the Canadian GP in June, the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output - was meant to arrive in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix.
This doesn't sound like something Honda would ever agree with, knowing with what they knew as early as the first winter test. It's also inconsistent with how long it takes to manufacture the PUs, and AFAICT doesn't match the predictions that Wazari made on how long things would take to get back to the 'heavier but internally preferred' PU architecture and back on the development path. As Wazari's comments on upgrades, in terms of Spec # and time of introduction have been correct, I'd wager this article is not as well sourced as it presumably claims.

ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ZakB » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:39 pm

nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:29 pm
ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
They drew up a three-stage development plan to achieve this by an agreed deadline. The first step was scheduled for May's Spanish Grand Prix, the second for the Canadian GP in June, the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output - was meant to arrive in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix.
This doesn't sound like something Honda would ever agree with, knowing with what they knew as early as the first winter test. It's also inconsistent with how long it takes to manufacture the PUs, and AFAICT doesn't match the predictions that Wazari made on how long things would take to get back to the 'heavier but internally preferred' PU architecture and back on the development path. As Wazari's comments on upgrades, in terms of Spec # and time of introduction have been correct, I'd wager this article is not as well sourced as it presumably claims.
Just look at the comments of Hasegawa, those deadlines named in the article were correct. They also knew in December that they had major problems, not at the first winter test.

SPA
"We had planned to introduce 'spec 4' here but we failed, we didn't match our schedule," said Hasegawa. "We're halfway through our upgrade so we called it 3.5 and 3.6."
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... pa-944753/

CANADA
Brown said engine upgrades promised for Sunday's Canadian Grand Prix were not ready and the team is "near our limit".
http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/40196307

cplchanb wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:10 pm
Well.....back in 2014 it was rhe same rosey pre season talk about Honda... Being a match made in heaven and back to the championship days...
All the claims about Renault being bwtter than merc have no basis because they assume merc will sit still next year.

Thw first quote is pretty telling as well in terms of the problem being shared. Honda didn't expect the mcl gearbox to be that ragged and i suspect that that problem was rather serious and fundamental.
So it's now the McLaren gearbox that was causing the problems. I find it amazing how some of you can change every story.
Last edited by ZakB on Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nzjrs
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by nzjrs » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:49 pm

ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:39 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:29 pm
ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
This doesn't sound like something Honda would ever agree with, knowing with what they knew as early as the first winter test. It's also inconsistent with how long it takes to manufacture the PUs, and AFAICT doesn't match the predictions that Wazari made on how long things would take to get back to the 'heavier but internally preferred' PU architecture and back on the development path. As Wazari's comments on upgrades, in terms of Spec # and time of introduction have been correct, I'd wager this article is not as well sourced as it presumably claims.
Just look at the comments of Hasegawa, those deadlines named in the article were correct. They also knew in December that they had major problems, not at the first winter test.

SPA
"We had planned to introduce 'spec 4' here but we failed, we didn't match our schedule," said Hasegawa. "We're halfway through our upgrade so we called it 3.5 and 3.6."
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... pa-944753/

CANADA
Brown said engine upgrades promised for Sunday's Canadian Grand Prix were not ready and the team is "near our limit".
http://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/40196307
God damn it. Which Spec #s are everyone using now.

In any case,
the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output


is not anything anyone sensible would agree to.

gibells
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by gibells » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:19 pm

Nevermind the pressure being on McLaren, I think it lies very firmly at Honda's feet. If Honda think McLaren made for uncomfortable bedfellows, just wait until they lie with the Red Bull organisation.

Which is why I see Renault quite welcoming of McLaren, because if they can convince McLaren to be their long-term partners, they will be happy to cut the ties they had with Red Bull.

And despite being currently measured as the 3rd best engine in the grid, I believe Renault provide parity for all powerplants. This is something Merc or Ferrari have never provided. So whilst looking like a compromised decision, I can see this relationship lasting a long time indeed.

Del Boy
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Del Boy » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:41 pm

ZakB wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:54 pm
For all the Honda fans I suggest you read this, instead of basing your comments on thin air and McLaren hate.
But pre-season testing revealed serious shortcomings. The Honda engine was leaky, unreliable, and less powerful than the old design. It also shook uncontrollably, as the transmission produced terrible vibrations that weren't predicted during winter testing on Honda's Sakura dyno.
They drew up a three-stage development plan to achieve this by an agreed deadline. The first step was scheduled for May's Spanish Grand Prix, the second for the Canadian GP in June, the third and final step - to match the estimated Mercedes customer engine output - was meant to arrive in time for August's Belgian Grand Prix.

Honda brought updates to each of these races, but they were not sufficient. As its F1 project leader Yusuke Hasegawa admitted in the FIA press conference at Spa, Honda "failed" in its task, and was now in breach of the development plan agreed with McLaren, opening the door for separation and severance.
Renault said it was open to a partnership with McLaren on the same terms as Red Bull, and McLaren can count on the bonus of already dealing with Renault's fuel and lubricants supplier BP. McLaren also believes it can help Renault technically, having assisted development of certain elements of Honda's energy recovery systems.
Anticipating that Honda-Ilmor wouldn't succeed in its task, McLaren continued efforts to secure a supply of customer engines from Mercedes. The F1 team was supposedly reticent to agree to this, fearing an Alonso-driven McLaren would be a threat to its own prospects at certain tracks. Nevertheless, feeling it had the support of the Mercedes board, McLaren was confident.
McLaren estimates that a fully operational Renault engine, with BP fuel and works mapping, would produce 5bhp more than a current customer Mercedes engine, which it reckons is 15kw (20bhp) down on the works engines owing to software mapping it believes Mercedes only makes available for Hamilton and team-mate Valtteri Bottas in qualifying.
McLaren only wanted results, and wanted them yesterday, which added pressure on Honda and increased the likelihood of mistakes. Honda wanted to be better, but could never progress quickly or competently enough to satisfy McLaren's demands.

Once trust was lost, there was no real hope of reconciliation. So now, finally, after nearly three seasons of abject disappointment and underachievement, McLaren-Honda's second marriage is over.

A match made in heaven it ultimately was not. Rather a tale of great expectations that never came close to being fulfilled.
Doesn't sound that bad, does it. Everyone wins.

McLaren gets a works engine (not deal)
McLaren keeps Alonso
BP can develop fuel for two teams
Toro Rosso gets funding and free engines
Honda can develop without pressure
Honda can move over to Red Bull if they get their act together
Good post. Most of this forum has been trying to big up Honda and belittle McLaren for the last few years. The expectations were very high because McLaren has endured 7 poor years (by their standards) and Honda engine deal seemed like a good one. I remember the RA168-E-V6 and the McLaren Honda glory days, but the recent Honda history isn't that inspiring and I'm including 2006 to present day. They have completely missed the whole energy recovery principal of the new regulations and as McLaren said some months ago they 'seem lost' and that has been bourne out at every race weekend, when update after update fails to deliver power or reliability.
Also I expect Peter Pedromo is looking forward to evaluating his aero solutions at the speed they were designed for because you can bet his team designed the MCL32 to be travelling at 10-15kph faster.
These engines have a 3 years left before being changed and I think McLaren could end up becoming an engine builder for 2021.
Slighty off topic but I wonder if McLaren can be of assistance to Renault after all they at least know the architecture of 3/4 F1 hybrid engines and I'm sure Honda have showed McLaren every mm of their engine and ERS!!

Thunder18
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Thunder18 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:54 pm

"I wonder if McLaren can be of assistance to Renault after all they at least know the architecture of 3/4 F1 hybrid engines and I'm sure Honda have showed McLaren every mm of their engine and ERS!!"

Was just thinking that.... How much "gardening leave" does Boullier and Co have to take now that they know Honda's current path and have opted for another??

ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ZakB » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:04 pm

Thunder18 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:54 pm
"I wonder if McLaren can be of assistance to Renault after all they at least know the architecture of 3/4 F1 hybrid engines and I'm sure Honda have showed McLaren every mm of their engine and ERS!!"

Was just thinking that.... How much "gardening leave" does Boullier and Co have to take now that they know Honda's current path and have opted for another??
I'm pretty sure both won't share any technical details about stuff that can be potentially used next year.