Mercedes Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Cold Fussion
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Cold Fussion » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:29 am

Blaze1 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:04 pm
The >50 percent, 831+bhp figure, includes power from the MGU-H to K, so the total is >831 bhp + <160 bhp (maybe 60 bhp), for a total of >891 bhp.
If the PU has 50% efficiency "with use of MGU-H" doesn't that imply that the max self sustaining power is ~831hp and not 831 + MUG-K? 900 HP self sustaining power would imply ~54% efficiency would it not?

Blaze1
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:21 am

Cold Fussion wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:29 am
Blaze1 wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:04 pm
The >50 percent, 831+bhp figure, includes power from the MGU-H to K, so the total is >831 bhp + <160 bhp (maybe 60 bhp), for a total of >891 bhp.
If the PU has 50% efficiency "with use of MGU-H" doesn't that imply that the max self sustaining power is ~831hp and not 831 + MUG-K? 900 HP self sustaining power would imply ~54% efficiency would it not?
Yes. Self-sustaining power would be >831bhp (assuming that the MGU-H can recover 100bhp). The qualifying modes of the PU must offer a significant increase in performance.

Muniix
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Muniix » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:25 am

SuperCNJ wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:09 pm
dmjunqueira wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:37 pm
Mercedes confirming that they achieved a conversion efficiency of more than 50% during dyno testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGDJqTDXgtg

Also the video shows the 2017 power unit in remarkable detail...
I was thinking why they would risk divulging any secrets by showing their current power unit, albeit with quite a few areas covered up - but still, I suspect an F1 PU guru would probably be able to get something from that video?

The other thing is in that video, didn't they say they are using this engine in the Project One car? If so, what is stopping anyone from buying that car when it is released and dissecting it? I know they aren't releasing it until 2019, by which time the technology would have moved on, but I'm sure there will still be a lot of technology in it that will still be relevant and useful reference info for new manufacturers wanting to enter F1?
Most of it is available in published papers by Elisa Toulson, Michigan University, doing TJI research for Mahle Powertrain in the US. Mercedes TJI some dog, same leg action as Ferrari/Mahle TJI. The F1 engines are limited by the regulations a production engine isn't so one can go crazy, use far more compute to make better desisions, implement the engine models researchers have spent decades refining to reflect experimental data, why not stick these in hybrid power train management so you can make better decisions as to where your best generating the power from, IC or MGU with software control of drive train.

Muniix
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Muniix » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:38 am

PhillipM wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:11 pm
They're not GPS, it uses the onboard sensors, which is why it's easy to fool. If it actually had GPS it'd be more foolproof.
There's about 100 times the compute performance in my mobile phone than in the powertrain management systems their forced to use. There running out of compute cycles to do things properly with that silly Microsux management box.

The new Huawei Mate 10 has a Neural Processing Unit for Artificial Intelligence ML, Machine Learning that would help powertrain management achieve a better outcome.

PhillipM
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by PhillipM » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:39 pm

They're regulated on them for a reason.

NL_Fer
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:39 pm

The Q3 boost by the Mercedes AMG team is getting enormous. It must be from all the data derived from the old engines they ran at the beginning of this season. Even Bottas gets on first row on a bad weekend.

But how about the customer teams? Do Williams and Force India have access to this Q-mode, because Renault/Hulkenberg and the McLarens seem to attack them for a spot in p6-p10.

Sierra117
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Sierra117 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:18 am

From what I remember, the customer teams do get access to it during Q3. I believe this was mentioned by Crofty or Herbert during the qualifying sessions last weekend. The issue causing FI and Williams' lower places isn't the engine modes of course, it's more to do with chassis/aero.

drunkf1fan
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by drunkf1fan » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:22 pm

Sierra117 wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:18 am
From what I remember, the customer teams do get access to it during Q3. I believe this was mentioned by Crofty or Herbert during the qualifying sessions last weekend. The issue causing FI and Williams' lower places isn't the engine modes of course, it's more to do with chassis/aero.
Crofty's an idiot, customer teams have access to the same engine modes. Engine modes are about regulating, more laps in higher power modes means less laps total the engine can do. There are two situations that happen, the smaller teams don't take the risk because they are desperate to not take a 5th engine as it will cost them more money, the other thing is, Williams need the higher power mode to get into Q3, so they can't just turn the engine up in Q3. It's not a Q3 mode, it's a high power mode and Mercedes only feel the need to use it in Q3, but that doesn't mean Williams doesn't feel the need to use it in Q2 or that Manor didn't feel the need to try it in Q1... once, realise they never got close and save the engine life.

Also a large part of the difference between Q2/Q3 is both the driver wanting to take more out of the tires and the track being faster. Attributing it all to engine is crazy. I mean Hamilton went out for a second run in Japan and was significantly faster up to S2 but then pitted. He either wanted a heat cycle on the tires, he wanted a better feel for an evolving track to do better in Q3 or he felt while he was pushing faster easily the tires felt a little less good so decided not to finish the lap. Either way the fact he could so easily go faster shows that part of that Q2 time was simply protecting the tires they are to start the race on.

Also lets not forget that Mercedes have the same performance gap to Williams during the race as in Q3, at a time they can't use such a mode(it uses more fuel than you could ever use per lap in a race... if you want to finish the race). The gap between Merc and their customers is 99.8% down to everything but the engine.

restless
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by restless » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:28 pm

drunkf1fan wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:22 pm
Also lets not forget that Mercedes have the same performance gap to Williams during the race as in Q3, at a time they can't use such a mode(it uses more fuel than you could ever use per lap in a race... if you want to finish the race). The gap between Merc and their customers is 99.8% down to everything but the engine.
Or the reason is not the Q3 mode, but usage of different fuels and oils ...

wuzak
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:30 am

restless wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:28 pm
drunkf1fan wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:22 pm
Also lets not forget that Mercedes have the same performance gap to Williams during the race as in Q3, at a time they can't use such a mode(it uses more fuel than you could ever use per lap in a race... if you want to finish the race). The gap between Merc and their customers is 99.8% down to everything but the engine.
Or the reason is not the Q3 mode, but usage of different fuels and oils ...
Williams and Force India, as far as I understand, use the same fuel and oil as the Mercedes team.

Haas use the same fuel and oil as Ferrari, but I am not sure if Sauber are as they are running the old engine this year.

Renault do not use the same fuel and oil suppliers as their customers (Red Bull, Toro Rosso), but have done development with their own supplier and their customers' supplier.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:47 am

restless wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:28 pm
drunkf1fan wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:22 pm
Also lets not forget that Mercedes have the same performance gap to Williams during the race as in Q3, at a time they can't use such a mode(it uses more fuel than you could ever use per lap in a race... if you want to finish the race). The gap between Merc and their customers is 99.8% down to everything but the engine.
Or the reason is not the Q3 mode, but usage of different fuels and oils ...
They do. The appearance of using different oils is just marketing. Just as how RedBull slapped Tagheuer on their Renault engines it is the same way you can slap a Petrobas badge on Petronas fuel.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

restless
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by restless » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:24 am

I find it hard to believe that all the difference between Mercedes and FI/Williams is due to chassis only.

fwgx
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by fwgx » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:33 am

restless wrote:I find it hard to believe that all the difference between Mercedes and FI/Williams is due to chassis only.
So in 2009 the reason the Brawn was faster than the FI and the McLaren was because it was turning it's engine up when the others couldn't?

Chassis is a huge part of things, plus Merc have the fastest driver over one lap.

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GhostF1
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by GhostF1 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:56 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMKZ3N_09HM

Not all who are the same are equal..

Sierra117
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit

Post by Sierra117 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:11 am

drunkf1fan wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:22 pm
Crofty's an idiot, customer teams have access to the same engine modes. Engine modes are about regulating, more laps in higher power modes means less laps total the engine can do. There are two situations that happen, the smaller teams don't take the risk because they are desperate to not take a 5th engine as it will cost them more money, the other thing is, Williams need the higher power mode to get into Q3, so they can't just turn the engine up in Q3. It's not a Q3 mode, it's a high power mode and Mercedes only feel the need to use it in Q3, but that doesn't mean Williams doesn't feel the need to use it in Q2 or that Manor didn't feel the need to try it in Q1... once, realise they never got close and save the engine life.

Also a large part of the difference between Q2/Q3 is both the driver wanting to take more out of the tires and the track being faster. Attributing it all to engine is crazy. I mean Hamilton went out for a second run in Japan and was significantly faster up to S2 but then pitted. He either wanted a heat cycle on the tires, he wanted a better feel for an evolving track to do better in Q3 or he felt while he was pushing faster easily the tires felt a little less good so decided not to finish the lap. Either way the fact he could so easily go faster shows that part of that Q2 time was simply protecting the tires they are to start the race on.

Also lets not forget that Mercedes have the same performance gap to Williams during the race as in Q3, at a time they can't use such a mode(it uses more fuel than you could ever use per lap in a race... if you want to finish the race). The gap between Merc and their customers is 99.8% down to everything but the engine.
I'm well aware that it is not just a Q3 mode. The point was that it is possible that part of the agreement between customers and Merc is that they only use the engine mode during Q3. Highly unlikely, but possible. In either case, as I said, it's very little to do with engine modes and more to do with the rest of the variables as you've mentioned yourself (driver, chassis, etc.). The engine mode will only take one so far.