Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Singabule » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:07 am

The final version of honda V10 is a monster, while the v8 is a ground tamper, but it is still far better than cosworth and still stronger than renault unit.

ringo
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by ringo » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:36 am

From what i remember honda engines werent respected because they blew up in a spectacular fashion quite often.
Thats my memory of the v10 days.

The good engines to have were bmw, benz and ferrari. Renault was known for its narrow angle to give good aero.

Honda maybe had a few 1 off powerful units for their home race and thats about that. Correct me if my memory is wrong.

Anyhow, i dont think honda will catch renault. We are all assuming renault are standing still. Renault will be a big threat in 2018 and abiteboul seems very hungry to bring all the resources in to make that happen. I can't see the same kind of all means necessary mindset at honda. They want to have their cake and eat it.
So far i think honda uses all the key technology but its not as refined. The tji etc.
For Sure!!

NL_Fer
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by NL_Fer » Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:14 am

I remember the V10 were very good, remember people had problems overtaking the Ligier Mugen and than it was a dog in the corners. V8 though was a dissaster. Honda pulled out end off 2008 season, so arrangements were made for a Mercedes during the winter and dropped in around Christmas. I remember a Jenson Button interview, he was lyrical about the Mercedes’ power and drivability.

Just don’t forget that magic double diffuser.

Still i am hopefull, seems like this year Honda made the same progression as 2015+2016 combined. They have the split turbo, just need to perfect it’s reliability and more important the Japanese engineers now understand the design goals for MGU-H harvesting and deployment. This weekend i really noticed from the on screen telemetry, how the Mercedes ES% was gaining during WOT. It means MGU-H was harvasting more power than MGU-K can deploy. That is Honda’s goal for this PU.

techman
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by techman » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:01 am


hate article :lol: no one need to take him seriously

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:06 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:14 am
I remember the V10 were very good, remember people had problems overtaking the Ligier Mugen and than it was a dog in the corners. V8 though was a dissaster. Honda pulled out end off 2008 season, so arrangements were made for a Mercedes during the winter and dropped in around Christmas. I remember a Jenson Button interview, he was lyrical about the Mercedes’ power and drivability.

Just don’t forget that magic double diffuser.

Still i am hopefull, seems like this year Honda made the same progression as 2015+2016 combined. They have the split turbo, just need to perfect it’s reliability and more important the Japanese engineers now understand the design goals for MGU-H harvesting and deployment. This weekend i really noticed from the on screen telemetry, how the Mercedes ES% was gaining during WOT. It means MGU-H was harvasting more power than MGU-K can deploy. That is Honda’s goal for this PU.
The V8 was going to receive a 'reliability' upgrade much like the other makes received, but Honda pulled out. The Renault became much more competitive with the Mercedes and Ferrari engines when it received the bump, too.
Honda!

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:10 pm

NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:26 pm
Any ideas how Honda’s quali mode works? Power in Q3 looks good, almost comparible with Renault or even the customer Mercedes of Williams and Force India. But both drivers are going backwards in the race.

Is would it just saving the new (split)turbo, which still seems to be made from glass.
Actually, if it wasn't for Vandoorne running wide and Alonso starting from the back, they would have finished in the points on merit. Yes, there appears to be a qualification mode, which some have said is around 25hp, but it looks like the cars aren't bad in the race, either.

My guess is Honda is running different ignition timing to allow for better power, yet more knock for a brief period of time. It may also have something do do with the ERS and how it operates. The cars have a full lap to charge the ES to the max before they run the next lap. Then you have open waste gate running as others have speculated about.
Honda!

Shandow
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Shandow » Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:16 pm

Lucky wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:15 pm
great article
https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/japanese-nuts-n-bolts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaAFfY45cJI

At the time when he moved from the Bar to Honda the car was designed by Geoff Willis so that's fine when the inexperienced Shuhei Nakamoto was put in charge of the team and in Geoff's place they hired Mariano to draw the car was a total disaster because besides the bad design did not fit the Bridgestone tires.

Another mistake of Honda was to have switched from fuel suppliers and ELF and Castrol lubricants to ENEOS the engine was developed to use one thing and they change to another, I do not understand until today because they did it if the set was progressing, they changed everything detonated the project.

At the time of Barrichello and Button the car was so bad that the Super Aguri that used the chassis and old engine of Honda had better results than Honda itself ....

After having regressed for 2 years knowing that the project was aimlessly hired Ross Brawn to put order in the house and develop the 2009 chassis, Honda sold the team for banana price being that more than 70% of the project was already finalized , but the Japanese say it's the biggest asshole Honda has ever done.

http://news.playf1.net/special/hondas-s ... r-revealed

In this link above some details of the 2009 Honda car.

Nonserviam85
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Nonserviam85 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:13 pm

Maybe people here are young and cannot remember that the V10 Mugen-Hondas were capable of making Jordan a championship contender at one point during the 1999 season. I was also amazed back at the time how bad the V8 Hondas were compared to the V10.
I agree the chassis was also bad but the engine drivability was so poor...
Last edited by Nonserviam85 on Fri Oct 13, 2017 1:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:47 pm

V10 vs V8 power

Image

The pdf file can be found here: http://www.f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files ... P2_02e.pdf
Honda!

HPD
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by HPD » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:31 pm

Honda is confident it will be able to improve its reliability record next season as a result of having a stable baseline to work with over the winter.

Honda's head of F1 project Yusuke Hasegawa said he was "ashamed" of the penalty during the race weekend, but he believes retaining the current power unit concept for next season will lead to a clear step forward in terms of reliability.

"This year, the biggest issue was we couldn't confirm the base power unit from the start," Hasegawa told RACER. "So all the time we needed to develop and we needed to update, and introduce [updates] at a grand prix before we could confirm the reliability or the performance.

"For next year, of course we haven't confirmed it yet, but at least we have the baseline that is the current engine. So we can use this engine at least, and we can circulate our development in the background. Then as soon as we have confirmed the reliability and the performance, we can introduce it at the grand prix.
"That way we have got more room to consider the performance and reliability before introducing upgrades."

"The car showed some good pace [at Suzuka]. I think we were quicker than Williams, quicker than Haas and quicker than Renault. So I think we had the performance to score a point if we had a good start."

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/144936-hon ... ty-in-2018

In this type of conflict, there are always good and bad. Have you defended yourself enough?

Hasegawa: I understand what you mean ... We had our problems, and McLaren was his. I could have pointed out the chassis problems encountered, but it would have been pointless to point who is responsible for what and for what. We had our problems, and we were not in a position to comment ...
http://www.autohebdo.fr/f1/actualites/h ... 89328.html

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:59 am

dren wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:10 pm
NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:26 pm
Any ideas how Honda’s quali mode works? Power in Q3 looks good, almost comparible with Renault or even the customer Mercedes of Williams and Force India. But both drivers are going backwards in the race.

Is would it just saving the new (split)turbo, which still seems to be made from glass.
Actually, if it wasn't for Vandoorne running wide and Alonso starting from the back, they would have finished in the points on merit. Yes, there appears to be a qualification mode, which some have said is around 25hp, but it looks like the cars aren't bad in the race, either.

My guess is Honda is running different ignition timing to allow for better power, yet more knock for a brief period of time. It may also have something do do with the ERS and how it operates. The cars have a full lap to charge the ES to the max before they run the next lap. Then you have open waste gate running as others have speculated about.
Remember knock damages power delivery. For street cars a fraction of a second of poor power is acceptable. For an F1 when a milisecond can lose you the race every bit of power is desired.. I don't think there is any advantage to running the engine in knock. None at all.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

Mudflap
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:47 pm

But the thing is that they run it so close to knock that they only get rare events - they don't get full blown knock on all cylinders on every power stroke.

This is the reason they use cylinder pressure sensors - they are much more accurate at detecting incipient knock than acoustic sensors - allowing them to run closer to the threshold.

As someone has correctly stated previously, the number of knock events is what limits the number of laps at higher engine modes. Of course it is undesirable to have a couple bangs during a lap but it more than makes up for it in extra power gained.
Si vis pacem volve velox

Del Boy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Del Boy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:06 pm

Lucky wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:15 pm
great article
https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/japanese-nuts-n-bolts
I agree great article. Its interesting that a lot of posts think it doesn't belong in this thread and technically worthless, then spend time posting about an engine from 2005-2009. Conveniently forgetting that Darren Heath is McLaren official photographer with a full access to MTC and probably has more insight into the McLaren Honda relationship than majority of forum members.

dren
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by dren » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:27 pm

Del Boy wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 4:06 pm
Lucky wrote:
Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:15 pm
great article
https://www.darrenheath.com/blog/japanese-nuts-n-bolts
I agree great article. Its interesting that a lot of posts think it doesn't belong in this thread and technically worthless, then spend time posting about an engine from 2005-2009. Conveniently forgetting that Darren Heath is McLaren official photographer with a full access to MTC and probably has more insight into the McLaren Honda relationship than majority of forum members.
It is technically worthless, however the insight is welcomed and would be a perfect fit in the team thread.
Honda!

Squid
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Squid » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:52 am

I'd take whatever Darren Heath says with a big, big grain of salt. He writes well (in a prose sense) but he takes several liberties with the content, by which I mean he makes stuff up.

The most egregious IMO was his "Heads on a plate" article which he wrote about Hamilton and Paddy Lowe having an argument after the race where Hamilton supposedly wanted to go home instead of going to the cerimony. After Mercedes called him out on it, he quietly changed the article.

His "insight" appears to be made up of stuff he daydreams of, or things he wished would actually happen in reality.