Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:37 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the difference between the power units is and always has been how long they can deploy max power down the straight, that Honda during 2015 was essentially using a power unit with no effective MGU-H, and could only harvest with MGU-K.

2016 allowed some MGU-H recovery, but it was weak compared to the others, probably in the range of 20-30kW, improved to 50kW by the end of the season.

This season, the big change took them back to 2015 levels of MGU-H recovery, and over the season they've improved it to just over 2016 levels, this is what they expected from the start of the season. And if this is what they had at the start, it would have been ok, they'd still be McLaren Honda in 2018, and it's a shame because Honda is now clearing the learning curve. I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that the actual difference between the ICE by itself is only 15-20kW tops. That extra 160kW for 33.3+ seconds per lap depends so much on the MGU-H and not being able to use it to it's full potential kills you.
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diffuser
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by diffuser » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:13 pm

Brazil is a short track ..about 70 seconds. 50% full throttle. So that's around 35 sec of full throttle. Compare that to Japan that is a 90 sec lap at 66% full throttle or about 60 sec FT. or Austin also about 60 sec FT.

DiogoBrand
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by DiogoBrand » Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:52 pm

Image

I don't know if this was discussed already, but by this table it seems like they have serious issues with TC/MGU-H integration. Maybe having issues with the split turbocharger adopted this year?

Joseki
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Joseki » Sat Nov 11, 2017 9:56 pm

If I remember correctly Honda used more TC/MGU-H than any other component in 2015 and 2016 too.

restless
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by restless » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:01 pm

I can't remember in which thread there were experiments with simulation software

Lets assume Vertappen's "losing 0.5sec on straights" is correct
Then, how big is the difference between Renault and Mercedes?
Can someone measure time difference between Alonso and Verstappen on the straights only ?
And via simulation, assuming equal car setup, deliver power deficit?

amho
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:55 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:37 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if the difference between the power units is and always has been how long they can deploy max power down the straight, that Honda during 2015 was essentially using a power unit with no effective MGU-H, and could only harvest with MGU-K.

2016 allowed some MGU-H recovery, but it was weak compared to the others, probably in the range of 20-30kW, improved to 50kW by the end of the season.

This season, the big change took them back to 2015 levels of MGU-H recovery, and over the season they've improved it to just over 2016 levels, this is what they expected from the start of the season. And if this is what they had at the start, it would have been ok, they'd still be McLaren Honda in 2018, and it's a shame because Honda is now clearing the learning curve. I think a lot of people would be surprised to know that the actual difference between the ICE by itself is only 15-20kW tops. That extra 160kW for 33.3+ seconds per lap depends so much on the MGU-H and not being able to use it to it's full potential kills you.
what is the source of numbers that you said about mgu-h recovery or how did u estimate them?

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:22 pm

I estimated them by looking at their performance relative to the others, it's all available if you know where to look, PM me I'll give you some pointers. Don't focus too much on the numbers, I'm not using any equations or anything fancy, just my grease monkey intuition. Instead focus on the point of the message, the unlimited MGU-H is the key to unlocking the power and efficiency these engines are capable of. It's the MGU-H that lets your run the engine at it's peak by controlling the turbo, it's the MGU-H that lets you harvest and deploy electrical energy at or in excess of what the regulations allow. The MGU-H and turbomachinery is easily the most upgraded, most experimental, most expensive, most complex piece on the whole car, it's the FIA's own fault really, they're the ones that put zero regulations on it.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

diffuser
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by diffuser » Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:11 am

wuzak wrote:
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:13 am
Alonso:
"I was very, very close to Felipe a couple of times on the exit of the last corner, but even with the DRS he was pulling away.

"The lack of power is quite worrying for Toro Rosso next year.

"It's still a shame that we have this incredible power deficit and that with all the battery, the DRS and everything they are still quicker on the straight.

"Yesterday I think it was 25 km/h, today when someone uses the DRS it must be 40 or 50, so it's pretty incredible that we finish in front of some cars."

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13298 ... -worry-str

Of all the tracks on the calendar, Brazil (and Austria) should be the least troublesome for deployment because of the shortness of the lap. And from that statement it sounds like Alonso was using all the power the Honda could muster, including all the ERS, and he was still getting smoked by a Williams.

No I think Monaco 33% FT and Hungry is 44% FT are...

Brazil it tougher cause of the uphill climb, long flat out Section (1.4 km) and there isn't much of a gap between the straight in S3 and the straight in S1... time to harvest.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:16 pm

Just to remember everyone i'll quote myself from a few Pages Ago (again):
Speed Trap figures (as a main Subject of the Post) also don't belong in here. There are however slight exceptions. If for instance someone was able to point out that Vandoorne and Alonso had different types of PU, but otherwise same set up and aerodynamic profiles, than that would be acceptable as we can scrap all significant variables in that case. Just don't Post "Verstappen 322, Vandoorne 310 #-o "

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:16 am

Moved the Team Chatter to the Team Thread. :wink:

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:36 am

This is basically the Honda team thread now.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

Thunder
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:17 am

Tell Honda to buy Toro Rosso, otherwise back to Topic please. :wink:

MrPotatoHead
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:26 pm

Thunder wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:17 am
Tell Honda to buy Toro Rosso, otherwise back to Topic please. :wink:
This guy! Haha.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pm

[quote=godlameroso]......the difference between the power units is and always has been how long they can deploy max power down the straight.......That extra 160kW for 33.3+ seconds per lap depends so much on the MGU-H and not being able to use it to it's full potential kills you. [/quote]

wouldn't that be 120 kW ?
(for whatever seconds per lap)

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:18 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pm
godlameroso wrote:......the difference between the power units is and always has been how long they can deploy max power down the straight.......That extra 160kW for 33.3+ seconds per lap depends so much on the MGU-H and not being able to use it to it's full potential kills you.
wouldn't that be 120 kW ?
(for whatever seconds per lap)
Yes, confused kW with Hp.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee