2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by NathanOlder » Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:28 pm

But finished 37 seconds behind a Red Bull.

There's no two ways about it, The ban on trick suspension hurt Merc and Red Bull, Ferrari questioned the legality as they COULDN'T get it to work well enough to think they had an advantage from it, otherwise they would have used it and kept quite on the matter.

Merc and Red Bull were knocked sideways at a very late stage, and Merc still cruised to double titles with races to spare.

Next year there is more chance of Red Bull and Mercedes improving than there is of ferrari. Surely everyone can see and understand that simple fact.
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ringo
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by ringo » Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:38 pm

Ferrari will be fine next year. I think it's nonsense to say vettel missed his one and only chance.
Why do people think the mercedes team is so invincible?
I actually see their car much weaker than it has ever been since 2014. The chassis is not the best and the power gap is basically down to a qualifying trick.
Ferrari engine is basically equal now and may well be superior next year. You never know.
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by George-Jung » Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:25 am

NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:28 pm
But finished 37 seconds behind a Red Bull.
Without a safteycar and a different type of circuit.

baybars
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by baybars » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:41 am

Vasconia wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:34 pm
So according to you Ferrari is not competitive even though they won the race and Kimi was third.

Sorry but you are manipulating all the data to try to convince us that Ferrari is not compeitive.

1. Renault: what we saw in Brazil was closer to what Renault has been in this season. They were not "down turned" they were "turned to what is normal" because Max´s performance in Mexico was thanks to the great optimism of Renault with their PU. We all know what happened with the rest.

2. FP2 and FP3 showed that Ferrari had good race pace(as it usually has happened this season even they don´t have a competitive car according to you), I am pretty sure that Vettel could have been faster, but they didnt need to do it.

3. Once again, Mercedes in Hamilton´s car was faster but not with the diference we saw in the race. Give Vettel fresh components and the perfect set-up and I am sure that his pace would have been also faster.
Renault were down turned in Brasil. This is already confirmed Horner,Verstappen and Abiteboul.
https://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/2334 ... -in-brazil
http://www.f1i.com/infos/red-bull-etait ... nterlagos/
http://www.f1i.com/infos/renault-a-sacr ... ce-bresil/
You can easily find other related interview via a little google search
Renault have used ultra safe mode in Brasil gp
Last edited by baybars on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

baybars
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by baybars » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:42 am

double post
Last edited by baybars on Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Restomaniac » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:01 am

George-Jung wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:25 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:28 pm
But finished 37 seconds behind a Red Bull.
Without a safteycar and a different type of circuit.
Yes what better way to help a driver stay in touch than a safety car backing everyone up together when everyone is still backed up together due to it just being the start. If the safety car was half way through the race you may have had a point. But all that happened was it stopped overtakes on the back of the grid for around 3 laps.

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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Restomaniac » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:13 am

ringo wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:38 pm
Ferrari will be fine next year. I think it's nonsense to say vettel missed his one and only chance.
Why do people think the mercedes team is so invincible?
I actually see their car much weaker than it has ever been since 2014. The chassis is not the best and the power gap is basically down to a qualifying trick.
Ferrari engine is basically equal now and may well be superior next year. You never know.
The trick ban caused Mercedes a problem they have struggled with all season. What happens in 2018 when Red Bull can run into a season from the start and Mercedes make a car that hasn't got a big black hole in the front of it? That is why this was Ferrari's best chance as the other members of the 'big 3' where on the back foot from the start. Yet still Ferrari couldn't do the job.

While Ferrari were able to cruise into the season Mercedes and Red Bull (More Mercedes due to their cars build style) had to start frantically figuring out how to make their car work with a major detail removed.
Yet still Mercedes have done it again. This time they HAVE done something that no other team have ever been able to do. That is retain a WCC through a major reg change and they did it rather easily.
It's clear they cannot fix their trick problem as they are going to shorten and increase rake for 2018 bringing them more in line with Red Bull and Ferrari.

It's funny you should mention the Ferrari engine. Numerous reports say the reason they left it so late to introduce then new spec was because they couldn't solve the oil burning issue. Their way to solve it? Increase the combustion until stuff starts to break to the point that they have had to roll it back somewhat to make it more stable. That's not going to go well long term.

Let's us look at this last weekend. Without their best driver Mercedes still stuck it on pole with Vettel having the far fresher engine. Now bear in mind that Hamilton is normally around 2/3 tenths faster that Bottas. That puts him at least 3 tenths faster that Vettel. The Mererces PU seems bulletproof something that cannot be said of the Ferrari PU. None of that screams that the 2 PUs are the same.

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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Vasconia » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:35 am

George-Jung wrote:
Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:38 pm
#-o Hamilton sure did have a superb drive- but lets see things in perspective.

Hamilton finished also within a couple of seconds of another Mercedes..

So how worried does Ferrari really need to be? Hamilton just had a great drive and used his new PU properly instead of ‘cruising’ around as the top 3 did.

In Malaysia Vettel did the same, started from the back and drove his balls off finishing 4th, including overtaking a Mercedes.
Youtube
Good point. Both cars are so superior to the rest that this is becoming usual. Anyway, I dont see Bottas or Kimi doing what Lewis and Seb did.

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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Vasconia » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:43 am

Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:13 am

It's funny you should mention the Ferrari engine. Numerous reports say the reason they left it so late to introduce then new spec was because they couldn't solve the oil burning issue. Their way to solve it? Increase the combustion until stuff starts to break to the point that they have had to roll it back somewhat to make it more stable. That's not going to go well long term.

Let's us look at this last weekend. Without their best driver Mercedes still stuck it on pole with Vettel having the far fresher engine. Now bear in mind that Hamilton is normally around 2/3 tenths faster that Bottas. That puts him at least 3 tenths faster that Vettel. The Mererces PU seems bulletproof something that cannot be said of the Ferrari PU. None of that screams that the 2 PUs are the same.
Early in the season it seemed that both PU had the same power, this is something wrong as it was shown in the fastest circuits. The Ferrari has indeed improved a lot, and it seems that they have a somekind of magic botton to give extra power in Q3 which has helped Ferrari to fight for some poles, which was a dream in previous seasons. But the Mercedes PU seems to have more power at its peak and what is even better, its more reliable.

So Ferrari needs to make another great job to improve the power but also the realiablity. This is essential in 2018 with only 3 PU for all the season.

And related to this, I do agree with Lewis, 3 PU? its a joke and a disaster for F1.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Restomaniac » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:58 am

Vasconia wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:43 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:13 am

It's funny you should mention the Ferrari engine. Numerous reports say the reason they left it so late to introduce then new spec was because they couldn't solve the oil burning issue. Their way to solve it? Increase the combustion until stuff starts to break to the point that they have had to roll it back somewhat to make it more stable. That's not going to go well long term.

Let's us look at this last weekend. Without their best driver Mercedes still stuck it on pole with Vettel having the far fresher engine. Now bear in mind that Hamilton is normally around 2/3 tenths faster that Bottas. That puts him at least 3 tenths faster that Vettel. The Mererces PU seems bulletproof something that cannot be said of the Ferrari PU. None of that screams that the 2 PUs are the same.
Early in the season it seemed that both PU had the same power, this is something wrong as it was shown in the fastest circuits. The Ferrari has indeed improved a lot, and it seems that they have a somekind of magic botton to give extra power in Q3 which has helped Ferrari to fight for some poles, which was a dream in previous seasons. But the Mercedes PU seems to have more power at its peak and what is even better, its more reliable.

So Ferrari needs to make another great job to improve the power but also the realiablity. This is essential in 2018 with only 3 PU for all the season.

And related to this, I do agree with Lewis, 3 PU? its a joke and a disaster for F1.
Agreed about the PU situation. Surely liberty/FIA have to look again at it?

If they were to try and agree to more I would struggle to think of any team who would disagree. It says it all when the guy driving the car with the seemingly bullet proof PU calls is for what it is.

It's like the gearbox situation. It's clear the current situation isn't working.
I'm all for cost cutting but when it's bringing a stupid amount of grid penalties it needs looking at.

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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Vasconia » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:47 am

Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:58 am
Agreed about the PU situation. Surely liberty/FIA have to look again at it?

If they were to try and agree to more I would struggle to think of any team who would disagree. It says it all when the guy driving the car with the seemingly bullet proof PU calls is for what it is.

It's like the gearbox situation. It's clear the current situation isn't working.
I'm all for cost cutting but when it's bringing a stupid amount of grid penalties it needs looking at.
The distorted grid can be fun at times but its not so fun if someone can´t fight for the championship because he has used his fourth engine. Its part of the race when a engine fails and you are out, but this is not.

But another problem of this rule(and I think is what Lewis is pointing out) is that you are forced to drive slower than you really want. This is the reason why Lewis enjoyed Brazil so much, he pushed like a beast and I think he realized how different will be in 2018 when they will have to be extra careful with engines. Its like in 2012 when Schumacher complained about the tyres, saying it was imposible to push and it was irritating to be so careful with them.

They, more or less, solved this problem in 2017 and now FIA creates another new one. #-o

Restomaniac
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Restomaniac » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:15 am

Vasconia wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:47 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:58 am
Agreed about the PU situation. Surely liberty/FIA have to look again at it?

If they were to try and agree to more I would struggle to think of any team who would disagree. It says it all when the guy driving the car with the seemingly bullet proof PU calls is for what it is.

It's like the gearbox situation. It's clear the current situation isn't working.
I'm all for cost cutting but when it's bringing a stupid amount of grid penalties it needs looking at.
The distorted grid can be fun at times but its not so fun if someone can´t fight for the championship because he has used his fourth engine. Its part of the race when a engine fails and you are out, but this is not.

But another problem of this rule(and I think is what Lewis is pointing out) is that you are forced to drive slower than you really want. This is the reason why Lewis enjoyed Brazil so much, he pushed like a beast and I think he realized how different will be in 2018 when they will have to be extra careful with engines. Its like in 2012 when Schumacher complained about the tyres, saying it was imposible to push and it was irritating to be so careful with them.

They, more or less, solved this problem in 2017 and now FIA creates another new one. #-o
It's pointless.
The idea was to save costs and also help the smaller teams. All evidence points to the new engine regs doing the opposite. As for the gearbox rules it actually hurts the rich gems more than the poor ones.
As an example if Sauber qualify in their normal back row how does a gearbox penalty effect them exactly. Or any penalty for that matter? They could take a new PU set each week if they wanted too with no effect (If Ferrari could supply that many 2016 PU's).

I understand Hamilton's point of view. It must be liberateing to actually be able to go balls to the wall with a PU turned up too 11. We know the Renault guys with new PUs couldn't do that in Brazil.

I imagine in Abu Dhabi everyone will have the PUs turned up to destruction levels.

henry
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by henry » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:23 am

What does a driver have to do that is different when they select a lower power engine mode? Do they really drive further from their ultimate abilities? Was Alonso not trying as hard as Massa?

I can see that they might enjoy it more, corners arriving a bit quicker, a little faster through the quick stuff, but do they really try harder?
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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by atanatizante » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:25 am

Were Merc trying something new here with the car`s rake here at Brasil race?
I mean it`s there a higher rake than usual for W08 car or it`s just the effect of left front tyre deflation/crash?
(maybe someone could provide a better picture after the race in order to compare both ...)

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Re: 2017 Brazilian Grand Prix - Interlagos, 10-12 November

Post by Sieper » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:34 pm

I think indeed we are just seeing the car wedged under the tires here. But who knows, we don't see Hamilton making a mistake that he cannot correct right away very often. I do feel his car simply slipped away under him (maybe due to the downshift) but perhaps they were running a different set-up. Once these current gen cars loose the down force on the rear wing (under a sideway motion) under some speed it is very hard to correct (if possible at all).