Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:16 pm

Just to remember everyone i'll quote myself from a few Pages Ago (again):
Speed Trap figures (as a main Subject of the Post) also don't belong in here. There are however slight exceptions. If for instance someone was able to point out that Vandoorne and Alonso had different types of PU, but otherwise same set up and aerodynamic profiles, than that would be acceptable as we can scrap all significant variables in that case. Just don't Post "Verstappen 322, Vandoorne 310 #-o "

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:16 am

Moved the Team Chatter to the Team Thread. :wink:

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:36 am

This is basically the Honda team thread now.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Thunder » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:17 am

Tell Honda to buy Toro Rosso, otherwise back to Topic please. :wink:

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:26 pm

Thunder wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:17 am
Tell Honda to buy Toro Rosso, otherwise back to Topic please. :wink:
This guy! Haha.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pm

[quote=godlameroso]......the difference between the power units is and always has been how long they can deploy max power down the straight.......That extra 160kW for 33.3+ seconds per lap depends so much on the MGU-H and not being able to use it to it's full potential kills you. [/quote]

wouldn't that be 120 kW ?
(for whatever seconds per lap)

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:18 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:36 pm
godlameroso wrote:......the difference between the power units is and always has been how long they can deploy max power down the straight.......That extra 160kW for 33.3+ seconds per lap depends so much on the MGU-H and not being able to use it to it's full potential kills you.
wouldn't that be 120 kW ?
(for whatever seconds per lap)
Yes, confused kW with Hp.
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:44 pm

There are many parts on electricity. They allowed to use 120 kw. I think ( correct me if I am wrong ) same electric motor can produce more power if battery is enough. This is conrolled by Control electronics. Mercedes is best in this area. İf merc can use Electric power (for example) for 30 sec per lap and with whole 120 kw because of good regenaration, Ferrari can use 29 sec with 120 kw (or maybe for 29 sec 115 kw - I think this cause more gap then current Ferrari and Merc difference), I think this can make enough for Ferrari and Mercedes performance difference.
Maybe honda is too behind in this area. Maybe when Honda spread its electric power to whole lap Honda can use only 110 kw ?
(All these are my assumption )

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:50 pm

Question:
Earlier in the season Honda were claiming that the ICE was pretty much spot on and they only had TC/MGUH issues. Is it me or they are struggling with the ICE too based on the number of units they have used so far ?
Of course it is masked by the appalling TC/H reliability, but the 9/10 units per driver seem to indicate a pretty serious issue there too.

Does anyone recall any rumors on ICE failures ?
How much TQ does it make though?

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by RonDennis » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:19 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:50 pm
Question:
Earlier in the season Honda were claiming that the ICE was pretty much spot on and they only had TC/MGUH issues. Is it me or they are struggling with the ICE too based on the number of units they have used so far ?
Of course it is masked by the appalling TC/H reliability, but the 9/10 units per driver seem to indicate a pretty serious issue there too.

Does anyone recall any rumors on ICE failures ?
The ICE isn't the problem, they just change that because of all the penalties they have to take.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bigblue » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:22 pm

From memory, I don't think there were many ICE failures. Lots of MGU-H (few MGU-K, turbo), quite often resulting in a new ICE (due to the integrated design ? hard to replace at the track given the time constraints). Whether this masks ICE reliability as they're swapping them around a fair bit anyway, or whether it's reliable, I don't know. There've also been a fair few spec updates, these probably required ICE changes ? I recall Hasegawa being shocked at an actual ICE failure earlier on in the season (was it the one with the oil pouring out of the car as it's winched away ?), but there haven't been (m)any more.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:46 pm

etusch wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:44 pm
There are many parts on electricity. They allowed to use 120 kw. I think ( correct me if I am wrong ) same electric motor can produce more power if battery is enough. This is conrolled by Control electronics. Mercedes is best in this area. İf merc can use Electric power (for example) for 30 sec per lap and with whole 120 kw because of good regenaration, Ferrari can use 29 sec with 120 kw (or maybe for 29 sec 115 kw - I think this cause more gap then current Ferrari and Merc difference), I think this can make enough for Ferrari and Mercedes performance difference.
Maybe honda is too behind in this area. Maybe when Honda spread its electric power to whole lap Honda can use only 110 kw ?
(All these are my assumption )
Honda according to Wazari san used the "short and thick" deployment strategy, use maximum assist where the car is slowest and use less where the car is fastest. The data kind of supports this, the McLaren is equal to the other 3 for the first 1/3rd of the straight, and where the Honda starts winding back MGU-K deployment, the other 3 are still going strong. So McLaren may have full power down the first 1/3rd, then by the end the MGU-K is only able to deploy 40kW while the Ferrari is deploying 110, and Mercedes can just go full 120kW deployment regardless of the length of straight. That deployment difference could be why the Honda looks so hopeless down the straights, and why the peak power difference isn't as big as we think it is.

A classic case of a very fast runner without a lot of stamina, he can be fast for 400m but can't sustain the pace for the full 1,600m, so you either pace yourself and go slower, or go as fast as you can for as long as you can but get winded and be really slow at the end.
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:49 pm

bigblue wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:22 pm
From memory, I don't think there were many ICE failures. Lots of MGU-H (few MGU-K, turbo), quite often resulting in a new ICE (due to the integrated design ? hard to replace at the track given the time constraints). Whether this masks ICE reliability as they're swapping them around a fair bit anyway, or whether it's reliable, I don't know. There've also been a fair few spec updates, these probably required ICE changes ? I recall Hasegawa being shocked at an actual ICE failure earlier on in the season (was it the one with the oil pouring out of the car as it's winched away ?), but there haven't been (m)any more.
Cheers, it sounds plausible that some ICEs were just collateral damage, however the TC/H are definitely separate from the block judging by the latest engine pics. Had the ICE been any decent though they would have not had to introduce unplanned updates.

Maybe the torsional vibration issue they had took a couple iterations to solve ?
How much TQ does it make though?

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by fellowhoodlums » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:12 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:46 pm
etusch wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:44 pm
There are many parts on electricity. They allowed to use 120 kw. I think ( correct me if I am wrong ) same electric motor can produce more power if battery is enough. This is conrolled by Control electronics. Mercedes is best in this area. İf merc can use Electric power (for example) for 30 sec per lap and with whole 120 kw because of good regenaration, Ferrari can use 29 sec with 120 kw (or maybe for 29 sec 115 kw - I think this cause more gap then current Ferrari and Merc difference), I think this can make enough for Ferrari and Mercedes performance difference.
Maybe honda is too behind in this area. Maybe when Honda spread its electric power to whole lap Honda can use only 110 kw ?
(All these are my assumption )
Honda according to Wazari san used the "short and thick" deployment strategy, use maximum assist where the car is slowest and use less where the car is fastest. The data kind of supports this, the McLaren is equal to the other 3 for the first 1/3rd of the straight, and where the Honda starts winding back MGU-K deployment, the other 3 are still going strong. So McLaren may have full power down the first 1/3rd, then by the end the MGU-K is only able to deploy 40kW while the Ferrari is deploying 110, and Mercedes can just go full 120kW deployment regardless of the length of straight. That deployment difference could be why the Honda looks so hopeless down the straights, and why the peak power difference isn't as big as we think it is.

A classic case of a very fast runner without a lot of stamina, he can be fast for 400m but can't sustain the pace for the full 1,600m, so you either pace yourself and go slower, or go as fast as you can for as long as you can but get winded and be really slow at the end.
The fact it wasn't improved significantly during 2017 implies it's a) tough to engineer a solution and b) has complex design changes needed to implement it in the current setup.

Until only the last few races have they managed to engineer reliability into the MGU-H.

Certainly a fascinating subject and when you read carefully comments from Honda, it is the MGU-H/Turbo setup where the weakness is.

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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:32 pm

I don’t think MGU-K is throttled. It is either on 120kw or off. Otherwise there is no 120kw reduction in power and the flashing rear light would not be triggered. It is just 120kw assist when throttle is floored, until the Ecu shuts it down or ES is depleted.

About ICE power: It could be possible that crankshaft power is comparable and that Mercedes gain is made in the amount energy that is generated in the exhaust gasses and recovered by MGU-H. We already know the engines are running extremly lean and take much more air than needed. Maybe it is just to expand/heat the air during combustion and recover this with MGU-H and use it for more deployment.