Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

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Jejking
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by Jejking » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:54 pm

astracrazy wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:48 pm
atanatizante wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:51 pm
also at the start of the season told us high rake was setup was a no go for them
That was at the start of the season though. Since then they have learnt a lot about the car and we have been told the W08 was a bit of a diva and had an underline problem which needed fixing for next year. So I wouldn't rule it out now even if they are keeping the long wheel base (don't Force India run like that). Saying that, I think its something else they are looking at because I didn't notice a "high rake" with them in the last two races where they were testing something.
What could this underlying problem be? For sure it made the car supersensitive to operate, it could fall out of the zone quite easily and then the Ferrari would stomp all over it, it was much easier to setup properly.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:36 pm

The problem appears to be one of rear tyre temps. In order to keep their long, low rake car working aerodynamically (without the trick suspension it was designed around), they ended up with suspension settings that just meant they couldn't get/keep tyre temps in certain conditions/on certain tracks. F1 tyres are temperature sensitive so the result is a car that behaves like it has two personalities: "happy and ooh-so-fast", and "grumpy and not playing today".
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by atanatizante » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:43 pm

dans79 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:59 pm
I think next years car will be an evolution of this years car. If you look at the poles and wins Merc took this year, they where still pretty dominant, they just had a harder time getting both cars to work well all the time.

I think the car will be a little shorter, and have a little more rake. For all we know the tire compounds for next year could work amazingly well for Merc, and they could be back to 4 and 5 tenthsfaster than everyone else again.
The fact that 2018 tyres will be softer maybe will play into Ferrari`s hands knowing how easy their car was on them, don`t you think?

W08 main issue was that on certain tracks/track temps or both all 4 tyres have had uneven tyre core temps and they were more than that puzzled by knowing the upper/first layer of tyre rubber was evenly heated on all of them ... This led to overheat some tyres – especially rear ones - thus surpassing their optimum operation window, forcing the car to slide more than usual and drivers ending to struggle for grip in the corners (especially in low speed ones)

SH70, by contrast, having that novel sidepod air intake they gained more than they are saying: a clean path & more air towards diffuser. They also gained DF in the central area of the car for having this structure placed as closed as possible to the car`s CoG and CoP and this helped them big time in their strategy to heat tyres evenly, their main philosophy by the fact …

And from my understanding these two above points ideally has to be as close as possible and this fact dictate which car wheelbase must be when they design the car … thus, they ended with a car which was easy on tyres, easy to set up, handling very well on most tracks but exceptionally only on high DF ones …

In contrast, Merc philosophy from the last 4 years was just opposite: they build a car which excelled on majority of the tracks having blips basically on Singapore and doing well on Budapest and Mexico City … and in the end, we know who prevailed, isn`t it?
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SectorOne
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by SectorOne » Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:00 am

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:43 pm
The fact that 2018 tyres will be softer maybe will play into Ferrari`s hands knowing how easy their car was on them, don`t you think?
Were they really easier on them? I remembered Mercedes overall had the best tire deg this season.
Mercedes problem was just getting them to work properly on some tracks.
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dans79
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by dans79 » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:49 pm

SectorOne wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:00 am
atanatizante wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:43 pm
The fact that 2018 tyres will be softer maybe will play into Ferrari`s hands knowing how easy their car was on them, don`t you think?
Were they really easier on them? I remembered Mercedes overall had the best tire deg this season.
Mercedes problem was just getting them to work properly on some tracks.
This is how I see it as well. This all stems back to the suspension ban at the beginning of the year.

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by PlatinumZealot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:09 pm

atanatizante wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:43 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:59 pm
I think next years car will be an evolution of this years car. If you look at the poles and wins Merc took this year, they where still pretty dominant, they just had a harder time getting both cars to work well all the time.

I think the car will be a little shorter, and have a little more rake. For all we know the tire compounds for next year could work amazingly well for Merc, and they could be back to 4 and 5 tenthsfaster than everyone else again.
The fact that 2018 tyres will be softer maybe will play into Ferrari`s hands knowing how easy their car was on them, don`t you think?

W08 main issue was that on certain tracks/track temps or both all 4 tyres have had uneven tyre core temps and they were more than that puzzled by knowing the upper/first layer of tyre rubber was evenly heated on all of them ... This led to overheat some tyres – especially rear ones - thus surpassing their optimum operation window, forcing the car to slide more than usual and drivers ending to struggle for grip in the corners (especially in low speed ones)

SH70, by contrast, having that novel sidepod air intake they gained more than they are saying: a clean path & more air towards diffuser. They also gained DF in the central area of the car for having this structure placed as closed as possible to the car`s CoG and CoP and this helped them big time in their strategy to heat tyres evenly, their main philosophy by the fact …

And from my understanding these two above points ideally has to be as close as possible and this fact dictate which car wheelbase must be when they design the car … thus, they ended with a car which was easy on tyres, easy to set up, handling very well on most tracks but exceptionally only on high DF ones …

In contrast, Merc philosophy from the last 4 years was just opposite: they build a car which excelled on majority of the tracks having blips basically on Singapore and doing well on Budapest and Mexico City … and in the end, we know who prevailed, isn`t it?
The ferrari winged side pods does not exclude itself from a long wheel base. That side pod is mainly a cooling solution with secondary benefit of cleaner airlfow over the car. See willem toet' and Scarbs analysis.

I do agree with the rest though. Mercedes long wheel base and lower average ride height makes the car sensitive to disturbances of the aero platform. A trick suspension will surely fix this problem.

Against everybody's worries, they will not go to high rake philosphy. What i see Mercedes doing is redesigning the bargeboards floor and suspension to make the car workable in wider array of conditions. Thr current design concept is just too good on fast tracks to throw away. Better to develop it further.

Anyway, the mercury suspension might finally see the light of day in all of this. The minimum weight is finally allowing it to be viable.
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dren
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by dren » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:18 pm

Given how they performed at the end of the year, they might have trialed some new suspension solutions to use on the 09. They may focus more on suspension set-up than aero since the aero seemed to work great. It might have been a balancing act of a set-up that kept the aero in check but was a detriment to the rear tires at certain tracks.
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roon
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by roon » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:21 pm

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:09 pm
Anyway, the mercury suspension might finally see the light of day in all of this. The minimum weight is finally allowing it to be viable.
The Merc with mercury, I like it. What's the background on this? Rumor?

PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:33 am

I can't say too much about this Mercury suspension right now. It has not fully come to light, but for a obscure photo of the rear end of the W02 in testing. It has been nervously fitted to and removed from the Merc cars for years -reportedly. All we know is that it is an acceleration based system and that it was the precursor to the FRIC. The heavy weight of mercury has a power density many many times higher than your run of the mill hydraulics, and could jack up or drop down the suspension in milliseconds. Yes... the mercury suspension. Shh.. don't let the mods know...

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roon
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by roon » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:50 am

Interesting to speculate about it. Mercury presumably far less compressible than oil.

cplchanb
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by cplchanb » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:59 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:33 am
I can't say too much about this Mercury suspension right now. It has not fully come to light, but for a obscure photo of the rear end of the W02 in testing. It has been nervously fitted to and removed from the Merc cars for years -reportedly. All we know is that it is an acceleration based system and that it was the precursor to the FRIC. The heavy weight of mercury has a power density many many times higher than your run of the mill hydraulics, and could jack up or drop down the suspension in milliseconds. Yes... the mercury suspension. Shh.. don't let the mods know...

https://abulafiaf1.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... on-part-a/
https://abulafiaf1.wordpress.com/tag/f1/page/4/
well we'll know if next year mechanics are building the cars while wearing radiation suits and are using Geiger counters

dren
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by dren » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:30 pm

cplchanb wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:59 am



well we'll know if next year mechanics are building the cars while wearing radiation suits and are using Geiger counters
For Mercury?
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Restomaniac
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by Restomaniac » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:45 am

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:33 am
I can't say too much about this Mercury suspension right now. It has not fully come to light, but for a obscure photo of the rear end of the W02 in testing. It has been nervously fitted to and removed from the Merc cars for years -reportedly. All we know is that it is an acceleration based system and that it was the precursor to the FRIC. The heavy weight of mercury has a power density many many times higher than your run of the mill hydraulics, and could jack up or drop down the suspension in milliseconds. Yes... the mercury suspension. Shh.. don't let the mods know...

https://abulafiaf1.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... on-part-a/
https://abulafiaf1.wordpress.com/tag/f1/page/4/
If it's that good I think we can guarandamntee that Ferrari will get the FIA to ban it.

garyjpaterson
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by garyjpaterson » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:25 pm

Neweys book is hilarious regarding Ferrari - talks about 3-4 separate cases in his career where, upon finding out they cannot make it work properly, they ask for 'clarification' and get it banned.

dren
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Re: Mercedes W09 Speculation Thread

Post by dren » Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:45 pm

garyjpaterson wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:25 pm
Neweys book is hilarious regarding Ferrari - talks about 3-4 separate cases in his career where, upon finding out they cannot make it work properly, they ask for 'clarification' and get it banned.
What's it called? I'll have to look it up.
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