Injection seats - a halo alternative

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roon
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Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by roon » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:49 am

Not ejection seats. Injection seats. To protect the drivers head, their seat can be reclined slightly. By modifying the fuel tank, an open volume can be created behind the driver. A hinged seat and actuator recline the seatback. The side headrests could be reinforced to further protect the driver's helmet.

This gets around excessively large structures such as canopies, aeroscreens, and halos, which end up looking disproportionately large upon the cars.

Image

MadMatt
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by MadMatt » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:24 am

This is an active system, which means it has to be actuated ON TIME to work (as opposed to the passive Halo system). Very difficult I would say. Using a detection method to "see" objects that may impact the driver to move the driver down would probably lead to some unexpected behaviour (assuming the whole process is fast enough).

Imagine the driver in a 250km/h corner and suddenly the seat moves because of a plastic flying in front of the car.

I like the fact that you tried something new, but I don't think it would work.

turbof1
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by turbof1 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:08 pm

I agree, this might get triggered for the wrong reason. Also being that deep in the cockpit might hinder any view on the surroundings, which could create a dangerous situation on its own.

I believe Piola suggested an active system where deflectors would pop out of the front bulkhead. Although I still have my reservations with that, atleast that's a bit safer.

I like the idea though, it's really thinking out of the box. It actually could make for a very good solution if the car goes for instance airborn, or has a very heavy crash. Putting the driver deeper into the survival cell should provide more protection. in that case. I even believe this will reduce G forces on the neck because you should always be closer to the rotation point in case of a crash.

It also looks very cool. Reminds me of the batmobile!

TalnoRacing
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by TalnoRacing » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:00 pm

I agree with the other replies - this may add danger rather than reduce it if the intention is to protect the driver against flying debris. Your proposal may however assist in head protection during a roll over, which should be easier to detect. In F1 the Halo might add roll over protection, but in lower formula your proposal may be beneficial.

Well done for thinking outside the box and proposing something new.

roon
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by roon » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:53 pm

MadMatt wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:24 am
This is an active system, which means it has to be actuated ON TIME to work (as opposed to the passive Halo system). Very difficult I would say. Using a detection method to "see" objects that may impact the driver to move the driver down would probably lead to some unexpected behaviour (assuming the whole process is fast enough).

Imagine the driver in a 250km/h corner and suddenly the seat moves because of a plastic flying in front of the car.

I like the fact that you tried something new, but I don't think it would work.
As with the halo, this device would not be for small debris. I wrote the OP in haste and left out some of my thought process. You are correct though in your concerns regarding an active system. That said, consider the complexity of cars these days, a myriad of active systems all bound together. Do the gremlins lurk in those as well? Any one of them fault in the middle of Eau Rouge and it's "Eau Maird!"

The question remains, even if the injection seat is intended for large objects, tires, cars, trackside stuff: how to trigger it?

Could be driver controlled, for times when they are in an out of control slide and can see an impending impact.

If a driver cannot trigger the device, automation jumps in. One idea is to embed proximity beacons within known massive objects on the track. Wheels or uprights, chassis, support vehicles, etc. These could be detected car-to-car from within a short range, and also tracked by FIA HQ. A live safety network, informed by gps and these beacons and their sensors. When impact trajectories develop, the system would trigger.

Vertical acceleration or excessive yaw & pitch could also trigger it, indicating becoming airborne or rolling.

Optical or radar detection may need to be quite sophisticated as you elude to, but there is much industry currently focused on autonomous vehicles. Perhaps their expertise can be contracted for such an application.

Thanks for the feedback.
Last edited by roon on Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FrukostScones
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by FrukostScones » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:02 pm

LOL
(But AS alwaS great drawing skills)
Game Over! NVWSSV is here.

RedNEO
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by RedNEO » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:13 pm

HAHA

I applaud this effort though, amazing attention to detail. I can see a driver like Kimi using this on the grid for a nap :lol:

JonoNic
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by JonoNic » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:20 am

Cool idea that could be better than the halo.

Can I add to this idea? Add High Definition screens inside the cockpit (for drivers to view out of) and permanently drop the driver like that (as you have drawn the driver in the lower position). Make the area of the cockpit next to their helmet see through so that spectators can identify the driver. It will still be an open cockpit and a passive safety system. Drivers can use the screens to "see through their legs". It could assist drivers on low visibility situations.

Always find the gap then use it.

notsofast
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by notsofast » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:27 am

JonoNic wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:20 am
Add High Definition screens inside the cockpit (for drivers to view out of) and permanently drop the driver like that
And then the next step is to put those High Definition screens on the pitwall instead. All safety problems solved! :)

strad
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by strad » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:57 pm

Like I said before. Y'all are just pushing for remote control cars with no driver.
You guys want to eliminate all danger and that would be the only real solution.
Lets remove the drivers and move spectators to a theater where they can watch in complete safety far from the actual track.
Danger is what made F1 for 50 years and now all these people want to remove it completely.
To an old fart that has been following since the early 60s this is all really dumb.
AND NO I don't want to see anyone die but I also don't like seeing the sport emasculated.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

JonoNic
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by JonoNic » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:15 pm

strad wrote:Like I said before. Y'all are just pushing for remote control cars with no driver.
You guys want to eliminate all danger and that would be the only real solution.
Lets remove the drivers and move spectators to a theater where they can watch in complete safety far from the actual track.
Danger is what made F1 for 50 years and now all these people want to remove it completely.
To an old fart that has been following since the early 60s this is all really dumb.
AND NO I don't want to see anyone die but I also don't like seeing the sport emasculated.
Like it or not the halo will be used in 2018 courtesy of the FIA. We are just looking for alternatives to that monstrosity. I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

Always find the gap then use it.

roon
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by roon » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:58 pm

strad wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:57 pm
Like I said before. Y'all are just pushing for remote control cars with no driver.
You guys want to eliminate all danger and that would be the only real solution.
Lets remove the drivers and move spectators to a theater where they can watch in complete safety far from the actual track.
Danger is what made F1 for 50 years and now all these people want to remove it completely.
To an old fart that has been following since the early 60s this is all really dumb.
AND NO I don't want to see anyone die but I also don't like seeing the sport emasculated.
It is interesting. Think of how accepting of risk motorcycle racing is, by comparison. They have their helmets and leathers, but no odd looking carbon fiber protuberances or ungainly roll bars. Apples to oranges, but my point is about accepting risk.

JonoNic
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by JonoNic » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:50 pm

Motogp does have those inflatable shoulder pads...

Always find the gap then use it.

roon
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by roon » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:50 pm

If it were F1, those shoulder pads would be inflated all the time. :) Which leads us to the next crowd-sourced solution: sumo suits.

Nickel
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Re: Injection seats - a halo alternative

Post by Nickel » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:51 pm

JonoNic wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:15 pm
strad wrote:Like I said before. Y'all are just pushing for remote control cars with no driver.
You guys want to eliminate all danger and that would be the only real solution.
Lets remove the drivers and move spectators to a theater where they can watch in complete safety far from the actual track.
Danger is what made F1 for 50 years and now all these people want to remove it completely.
To an old fart that has been following since the early 60s this is all really dumb.
AND NO I don't want to see anyone die but I also don't like seeing the sport emasculated.
Like it or not the halo will be used in 2018 courtesy of the FIA. We are just looking for alternatives to that monstrosity. I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
I think he's barking up exactly the right tree. Halo is bad enough and especially heavy enough. How much do you think this automated lay-z-boy survival cell is going to weigh? And in car tv screens? You guys are losing the plot.