Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

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marmer
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by marmer » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:55 pm

That's why in F1 it should only be allowed in practice. The other teams are far to busy preparing for qualification and the race to actually test future ideas if you where a BMW or Nissan turning up to practice getting filmed doing some fast lap times in cool modern technology i don't see that as a bad thing and it would help reduce the chance of the regulations going the wrong way. If they had tested the current engines for a full season of practice they might have seen how quite and unreliable they are and changed things around

Edax
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by Edax » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:32 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 5:05 pm
JonoNic wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:03 pm
Manoah2u wrote:i seem to be missing something here.

what on earth is Garage 56?
Experimental vehicles (similar pace to the current F1 cars) that are allowed to test/race but no classification will be given in race results.
ok thanks. interesting.

So that means if they'd finish P3, the driver won't be on the podium but the driver finishing P4?
would be rather confusing for the fans imho.

side question then, how are LM participators able and willing to be financing such a vehicle if they won't get classified, and thus no results or income - i can only imagine sponsors, but......
Exposure. Garage 56 has been used over the years to enter experimental testbeds on biofuel, hybrid technology, lightweighting etc. These always get more attention than the regular entries.

And you have to understand that a lot about racing is not about what you see on tv. What happens in the hospitality unit is just as important if not more important.

Manoah2u
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by Manoah2u » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:35 pm

Well by that account, Formula 1 IS garage 56.
F-duct. S-duct. Oil burning as fuel. blown floors. fric. double floors.
sounds to me very much like exactly what F1 is all about.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

marmer
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by marmer » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:15 am

Manoah2u wrote:Well by that account, Formula 1 IS garage 56.
F-duct. S-duct. Oil burning as fuel. blown floors. fric. double floors.
sounds to me very much like exactly what F1 is all about.
Yea but F1 has very tight regulations i think the aim of a garage 56 in F1 would be to test more creative ideas that could help shape future regulations. Example could have been something like the shark thin. If a 56 car had it on we could have seen just how much people disliked it and how it makes oversteer much harder to correct after a certain point. And banned them a year sooner

strad
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by strad » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:12 pm

Please explain how the fin makes it harder to correct a car in a tail out situation?
I would have thought the air pressure would make it easier, much like a WoO cars wing does.
Just asking , not looking to start yet another diatribe.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss

marmer
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by marmer » Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:27 am

strad wrote:Please explain how the fin makes it harder to correct a car in a tail out situation?
I would have thought the air pressure would make it easier, much like a WoO cars wing does.
Just asking , not looking to start yet another diatribe.
It was discussed with pat on sky i believe when we knew they where going to use them an mentioned when people spun in the early days. I believe the affect was if the car went sideways 90+ degree to the momentum of travel the shark thin would make it more likely the car would keep spinning as after the car goes over 90 the air flow would push against the direction the driver wants to correct to but yes it would help with stability before 90 degree

factory_p
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by factory_p » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:15 am

How about that :

FOM assembles a team, in which the current F2 champion is assured a drive for the coming season should he not find a seat elsewhere. The other seat can be filled in any driver the team thinks is suited (likely a pay driver to sustain the team's finances). F2 has strong ties to Dallara who also works for Haas so no doubt they can deliver a chassis. As for engines.... either buy one from a current manufacturer, or perhaps Mecachromes (engine supplier for GP3 and F2 and LMP1-L as well as Renault F1's PU manufacturer) can produce a PU. The financial balance of the team can be ensured by the FOM in forms of special payments (similar to what Ferrari gets for "being a historic team"). This would provide a good backmarkers team to help drivers make their first steps into F1 and avoid having F2 champions sitting out a season (like Gasly or Vandoorne recently). It would also probably be a good way for young team members (engineers, mecahnics...) to gear up for the top teams.

That's what I would like to see as a Garage 56.

krisfx
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by krisfx » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:46 am

marmer wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:15 am
Manoah2u wrote:Well by that account, Formula 1 IS garage 56.
F-duct. S-duct. Oil burning as fuel. blown floors. fric. double floors.
sounds to me very much like exactly what F1 is all about.
Yea but F1 has very tight regulations i think the aim of a garage 56 in F1 would be to test more creative ideas that could help shape future regulations. Example could have been something like the shark thin. If a 56 car had it on we could have seen just how much people disliked it and how it makes oversteer much harder to correct after a certain point. And banned them a year sooner
Slightly OT, but what is/was the difference between the 2017 shark fin and the 2008 shark fin? Why is there so much dislike just recently?

If we all disliked it that much, why was it not banned in 2009 with the regulation overhaul?

Tim.Wright
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by Tim.Wright » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:59 am

strad wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:12 pm
Please explain how the fin makes it harder to correct a car in a tail out situation?
I would have thought the air pressure would make it easier, much like a WoO cars wing does.
Just asking , not looking to start yet another diatribe.
While the fin does create a stabilising yaw moment in a slide, it also blocks airflow to the rear wing in the same condition. Losing rear wing downforce will reduce your stabilising yaw moment.

Of the two effects opposing effect, I'd say the loss in rear wing downforce would be the dominant one since the rear wing is responsible for such a large percentage of rear downforce directly (by itself) and indirectly (via it's use in enhancing diffusor effectiveness).
Not the engineer at Force India

Andres125sx
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by Andres125sx » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:09 am

marmer wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:27 am
strad wrote:Please explain how the fin makes it harder to correct a car in a tail out situation?
I would have thought the air pressure would make it easier, much like a WoO cars wing does.
Just asking , not looking to start yet another diatribe.
It was discussed with pat on sky i believe when we knew they where going to use them an mentioned when people spun in the early days. I believe the affect was if the car went sideways 90+ degree to the momentum of travel the shark thin would make it more likely the car would keep spinning as after the car goes over 90 the air flow would push against the direction the driver wants to correct to but yes it would help with stability before 90 degree
Then it is an aid, not a problem, since this is f1 not WRC and if a car goes past 90 degree slide that's a guaranteed spin, not enough steering lock in f1 cars to correct that

zac510
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by zac510 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:28 pm

The last 4 or 5 years of both Mercedes engine and Pirelli tyres have shown me that there are a very noisy bunch of fans that are intolerant of experimentation, F1 as a meritocracy and F1 as a proving ground for technology. I think they're in the minority, but they're very noisy on forums and social media. Thus I don't think there is a chance for anything like garage 56 or greater technical diversity in F1. The new engine regulation proposals are proving that F1 is reacting to these fans. This regulatory diversity can only really exist at a lower level series where there are more tolerant and highly educated fans and less scrutiny, IMO.
That's not to say F1 is not great just as it is now anyway :)

Maritimer
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by Maritimer » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:18 pm

Garage 56 was an attempt by the ACO to drum up press and has been a massive flop since it's inception. F1 doesn't need experimental vehicles eating up track space for no reason, FOM need to be worrying themselves with making the series more marketable.

strad
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Re: Why can't Formula 1 have a garage 56?

Post by strad » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:29 pm

, not enough steering lock in f1 cars to correct that
I've noted that for years. It has nothing to do with the fin.
In my experience I see no reason to think it doesn't work like the wing on a WoO car and stops the spin and it does it by wind/air resistance once turned sideways to the line of travel.
Which I once again state makes the car more susceptible to cross winds as we have seen in numerous races this past season.
As some stated back then, It may help in a straight line, however common sense says the larger the profile the more it will be affected.
Motorsport without danger is like cooking without salt
Sir Stirling Moss