Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:41 pm

so they're charging the ES in pulses at 240 kW (or more as you advocate) ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:44 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:41 pm
so they're charging the ES in pulses at 240 kW (or more as you advocate) ?
Without a scale, who knows. The rules don't place a limit on the rate from H to ES, so in order for that timeslice to be as short as possible, it can be more powerful than the K if you want. The only restriction is engineering/packaging.

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:27 am

Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:13 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:40 am
... I still don't buy it. The rules don't allow energy (beyond 4 MJ/lap) to be transferred from the ES to the 'K and this is nothing but a loophole which the FIA would close in a heartbeat once discovered. The unusual energy flow would be obvious in data reviewed by officials.
The ES doesn't need to transfer >4MJ from the ES to the K directly in order for this to be viable. The direct route from ES to K is max 4MJ per regulation and I am not suggesting it needs to be breached.

So long as the ES SoC doesn't go below a nominal 0 or above a maximum 4MJ,
The ES can transfer any amount of energy you like to the H, at any rate.
The H can transfer any amount of energy you like to the K, at any rate (though the K can only "consume" energy at 120kW).

The suggestion is that this ES to H transfer, then H to K transfer is interleaved, and the switch is done many times per second, and that it's also a reversible process (that is to say the K can charge up the ES using the H as a go-between).

The "unusual energy flow" is legal according to my reading of the rules. What rule would it breach, according to your reading of the rules?
My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.
je suis charlie

AJI
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by AJI » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:41 am

hasika wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:30 am

·...As the rules set the MGU-K can only send 2MJ to ES and the MGU-K can release 4MJ as most in a lap.But there is no limitation for the MGU-H.So we tried extraharvest technology.First,we harvest more energy from the MGU-K,more than 2MJ,then we send 2MJ to the ES from the MGU-K,the rest of the energy will be sent to the ES thourgh MGU-H.As we had many reliability issues with MGU-H this season,so we didnt find good timing to introduce it.We finally tested it in the Belgium GP and we begin to introduce the technology from Monza.
So, the bold bit can be read two ways, I guess we could label them Craigy or gruntguru. I can't decide, but at least we're back on-topic...

godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:53 am

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:27 am
Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:13 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:40 am
... I still don't buy it. The rules don't allow energy (beyond 4 MJ/lap) to be transferred from the ES to the 'K and this is nothing but a loophole which the FIA would close in a heartbeat once discovered. The unusual energy flow would be obvious in data reviewed by officials.
The ES doesn't need to transfer >4MJ from the ES to the K directly in order for this to be viable. The direct route from ES to K is max 4MJ per regulation and I am not suggesting it needs to be breached.

So long as the ES SoC doesn't go below a nominal 0 or above a maximum 4MJ,
The ES can transfer any amount of energy you like to the H, at any rate.
The H can transfer any amount of energy you like to the K, at any rate (though the K can only "consume" energy at 120kW).

The suggestion is that this ES to H transfer, then H to K transfer is interleaved, and the switch is done many times per second, and that it's also a reversible process (that is to say the K can charge up the ES using the H as a go-between).

The "unusual energy flow" is legal according to my reading of the rules. What rule would it breach, according to your reading of the rules?
My point is this. Why have the 4 MJ and 2 MJ limits on K transfers then allow those limits to be breached by sending the energy - to the same place - by a different route? If this is happening and the FIA knows about it (and they would because it would be obvious in the data) they would ban it! It is a device/strategy designed purely to circumvent a rule. It isn't happening IMO.
My guess is this has been known since the regulations were drafted. And were written that way on purpose, they could have so easily closed this "loophole" with a few words. The fact they haven't in 4 years and the fact Honda admits they're doing it should not leave any doubt. Unless Mercedes is somehow getting some ridiculous numbers from the turbine, I don't see any other way.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by gruntguru » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:52 am

I will wait for the translation where Honda says they are doing this.

I believe they have added the ability to transfer direct from K to H but only use it in situations where the energy can be used immediately - not using the H as a way-station to transfer between the K and the ES.

IMO the FIA wouldn't even need to change the rules to stop this. Its a clear case of "not in the spirit of the rules". As I said before - why not remove the 2 and 4 MJ limits if there is a way around them?
je suis charlie

Blaze1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Blaze1 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:45 am

Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:33 pm
The 40 pulses of K spinning up the H would be interleaved with 40 pulses of K direct to ES, so the net result at the K is a constant 120kW of retardation, not pulsed at all.
Hi Craigy

I don't understand why the K would be used to spin up the H?

bill shoe
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by bill shoe » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:47 am

Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:13 pm
So long as the ES SoC doesn't go below a nominal 0 or above a maximum 4MJ,
The ES can transfer any amount of energy you like to the H, at any rate.
The H can transfer any amount of energy you like to the K, at any rate (though the K can only "consume" energy at 120kW).

The suggestion is that this ES to H transfer, then H to K transfer is interleaved, and the switch is done many times per second, and that it's also a reversible process (that is to say the K can charge up the ES using the H as a go-between).

The "unusual energy flow" is legal according to my reading of the rules. What rule would it breach, according to your reading of the rules?
My mind glazed over as I read much of the recent discussion about energy flow. But with this post I get it!

The H has non-zero rotational inertia, so it has mechanical energy storage capability whether we like it or not. Energy rate in or out the H is unlimited. But energy can only be put into the K at 120kW. So anytime you are "on the gas" the K will always be fed 120 kW of electrical power. The source of this power just switches back and forth rapidly between the 4MJ ES supply and the H rotational-inertia supply. In this manner the ES 4MJ is prolonged over the entire lap even though the K is always getting 120kW of power. In the milliseconds when the K is fed by the ES instead of the H, the H is also getting fed by the ES. Brilliant.

Just putting it in my own words to help myself understand it better. Craigy has good candidate for best post of the year.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:18 am

Blaze1 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:45 am
Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:33 pm
The 40 pulses of K spinning up the H would be interleaved with 40 pulses of K direct to ES, so the net result at the K is a constant 120kW of retardation, not pulsed at all.
Hi Craigy

I don't understand why the K would be used to spin up the H?
There's an energy limit of 2MJ on the direct connection from K->ES per lap per FIA F1 technical regulations.
From ES->K, the equivalent limit is 4MJ, so it's not a symmetrical limitation in the regulations.
If you want to deploy 4MJ (or more) of energy per lap out of the K, then you need a way to harvest it.

There's no regulated limit on the energy per lap the K can send to the H, and no regulated limit per lap on the energy the H can send to the ES.

Consequently, you can elect to send >2MJ from the K to the ES, so long as the H is used as a go-between for any amount over 2MJ per lap.

Since the H can't both speed up (receiving energy from the K) and spin down (sending energy to the ES) at the same time, you would switch between sending energy K->H then stopping that, and starting to discharge energy H->ES, and back to K->H again, and so on, many times per second.

The switching would speed up and slow down the H only a small amount each time it is spun up by the energy from the K or spun down by sending energy to the ES, keeping it (and all the rest of the turbo/compressor) in -or very close to- the range the ICE needs.

Because the H is spending some of its time sending energy to the ES, the K can be used during that time to send energy directly to the ES, inside the 2MJ "direct" route regulated amount. Thus the K can actually be harvesting all the time, even when the H is busy dumping energy into the ES.

The K is switching from sending energy direct to the ES, then to the H, then to the ES, then to the H, about 40 times per second in the Honda docs.
All this energy ultimately gets into the ES, but the 2MJ limit only applies to direct K->ES transfers.

It's a way to get 4MJ or more into the ES per lap, without relying on the MGU-H's other job, which is compounding energy out of exhaust gases.

wuzak
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:20 am

bill shoe wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:47 am
Craigy wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:13 pm
So long as the ES SoC doesn't go below a nominal 0 or above a maximum 4MJ,
The ES can transfer any amount of energy you like to the H, at any rate.
The H can transfer any amount of energy you like to the K, at any rate (though the K can only "consume" energy at 120kW).

The suggestion is that this ES to H transfer, then H to K transfer is interleaved, and the switch is done many times per second, and that it's also a reversible process (that is to say the K can charge up the ES using the H as a go-between).

The "unusual energy flow" is legal according to my reading of the rules. What rule would it breach, according to your reading of the rules?
My mind glazed over as I read much of the recent discussion about energy flow. But with this post I get it!

The H has non-zero rotational inertia, so it has mechanical energy storage capability whether we like it or not. Energy rate in or out the H is unlimited. But energy can only be put into the K at 120kW. So anytime you are "on the gas" the K will always be fed 120 kW of electrical power. The source of this power just switches back and forth rapidly between the 4MJ ES supply and the H rotational-inertia supply. In this manner the ES 4MJ is prolonged over the entire lap even though the K is always getting 120kW of power. In the milliseconds when the K is fed by the ES instead of the H, the H is also getting fed by the ES. Brilliant.

Just putting it in my own words to help myself understand it better. Craigy has good candidate for best post of the year.
They are actually talking about using the unlimited energy transfer between the MGUK and MGUH to cheat the 2MJ MGUK to ES storage limit.

The basis for this is an energy flow diagram which depicts 1MJ being sent from the MGUK to the MGUH and then 1MJ from the MGUH to the MGUK, and a set of squiggly lines on a performance plot.

And if you think about it, the theoretical energy flow is, in reality:

MGUK -> CE -> MGUH -> CE -> ES

Switching between that and
turbo/angular momentum -> MGUH -> CE -> ES?

Switching between the ES and MGUH to drive the MGUK would seem to be pointless, as you would be switching between having 160hp and 80hp. Better to use the MGUH to send all its power to the MGUK as a continuous stream and supplement that with power from the ES. That way you are drawing a lower power level from the ES to give to the MGUK and still have 160hp output.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:22 am

bill shoe wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:47 am
My mind glazed over as I read much of the recent discussion about energy flow. But with this post I get it!
I'd like Giorgio Piola & Scarbs to do a slick animation of this.

In this case, it would definitely be worth more than a thousand words.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:37 am

wuzak wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:20 am
...The basis for this is an energy flow diagram which depicts 1MJ being sent from the MGUK to the MGUH and then 1MJ from the MGUH to the MGUK, and a set of squiggly lines on a performance plot.
I'm afraid you're wrong there. The basis for this is an idea I had about 2 years ago. Happily, I posted on F1technical about it at the time so I can prove it.
The timestamp for that post is Tue Feb 09, 2016 2:36 pm. It's in the Mercedes PU thread if you want to read it.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=23688&p=617506

My idea at the time wasn't fully-formed as I was missing the "switch it on and off fast to keep the compressor in the correct working range" part of the solution.

I didn't keep talking it through at the time, because of the reaction from gruntguru and others.

It was nice to see the Honda article though.

Craigy
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Craigy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:48 am

wuzak wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:20 am
Switching between the ES and MGUH to drive the MGUK would seem to be pointless, as you would be switching between having 160hp and 80hp. Better to use the MGUH to send all its power to the MGUK as a continuous stream and supplement that with power from the ES. That way you are drawing a lower power level from the ES to give to the MGUK and still have 160hp output.
I'm not sure where you're getting 80hp (60kW) from. The H isn't limited to 60kW. It is not limited at all.

wuzak
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by wuzak » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:57 am

Craigy wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:48 am
wuzak wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:20 am
Switching between the ES and MGUH to drive the MGUK would seem to be pointless, as you would be switching between having 160hp and 80hp. Better to use the MGUH to send all its power to the MGUK as a continuous stream and supplement that with power from the ES. That way you are drawing a lower power level from the ES to give to the MGUK and still have 160hp output.
I'm not sure where you're getting 80hp (60kW) from. The H isn't limited to 60kW. It is not limited at all.
An estimate.

It sure as hell isn't recovering 160hp from the exhaust. And if it was, you wouldn't need to muck around with the stuff you are proposing.

Jolle
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Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Jolle » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:57 am

I assume all the PU builders have multiple teams working on stuff whenever the rules state “unlimited” or “free” at some point to take full advantage (like the energy flow between the H and K units). I suspect from all PU’s some clever transfers.