Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
carisi2k
18
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by carisi2k » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:02 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:54 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:12 am
The Power units will all fit into different chassis and gearbox physically with minimal modifications.
Not so. The front of the engine is usually inset in to the rear face of the tub. Each engine will require a different tub for a start. You could make an adaptor but that will increase the unit's over all length. That then requires different bodywork and a different floor. Changes in length also affect aero.
The engine is not inset into the rear face of the tub. The air intakes, battery and fuel tank are directly behind the tub and the PU's are set back a bit. The Renault might sit further forward then the Honda due to the turbo layout but putting a split turbine PU into the rb14 should not be a problem if it is done at the start of the year.

I will repeat that I never once said that a switch mid season would occur. My suggestion was that the RB14 at the first preseason test might be setup to take the Honda PU if the Renault was a hand grenade and the Honda proved fast and reliable in the STR13. Red Bull and Renault's relationship is at a dead end and this sort of planning should be taken into account.

factory_p
10
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 9:04 am

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by factory_p » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:40 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:02 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:54 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:12 am
The Power units will all fit into different chassis and gearbox physically with minimal modifications.
Not so. The front of the engine is usually inset in to the rear face of the tub. Each engine will require a different tub for a start. You could make an adaptor but that will increase the unit's over all length. That then requires different bodywork and a different floor. Changes in length also affect aero.
The engine is not inset into the rear face of the tub. The air intakes, battery and fuel tank are directly behind the tub and the PU's are set back a bit. The Renault might sit further forward then the Honda due to the turbo layout but putting a split turbine PU into the rb14 should not be a problem if it is done at the start of the year.

I will repeat that I never once said that a switch mid season would occur. My suggestion was that the RB14 at the first preseason test might be setup to take the Honda PU if the Renault was a hand grenade and the Honda proved fast and reliable in the STR13. Red Bull and Renault's relationship is at a dead end and this sort of planning should be taken into account.
First of all, RBR and Renault have a contract for 2018. Breaking it to run a Honda engine would always be possible, but at a very dissuasive cost.

Then, you have mentioned several times that Renault is struggling with their MGU-K for 2018. Can you share your source?

You also said that "Horner says whatever is necessary to keep Cyrille happy". May I recommend reading his interviews from 2015 for instance? It seems to me tgat Horner is just using every trick he can find to get a better engine. He tried pressurizing Renault by publicly criticizing their job, he tried getting a new engine, he tried encouraging Renault to take outside help (Ilmor), ...

You also seem to believe Renault won't do much to help RBR getting a performant package this year. And although your reasoning "they have a works team, they will favor it" sounds logical, allow me to disagree. Renault's strategy in F1 has always been to get some podiums and wins, no matter who got it. They were perfectly happy with Red Bull/Vettel's winning streak in the V8 era and with Williams' championships in the early 90s. I strongly believe they would be very happy with a Red Bull or a McLaren taking the championship next year. Giving them crappy machinery could only make poor publicity : they are perfectly aware of how talkative someone like Marko or Alonso can be when they are dissatisfied with their engine. I don't see how that could be positive for the brand's image - which is why Renault does F1 in the first place.

carisi2k
18
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by carisi2k » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:56 pm

factory_p wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:40 pm

First of all, RBR and Renault have a contract for 2018. Breaking it to run a Honda engine would always be possible, but at a very dissuasive cost.

Then, you have mentioned several times that Renault is struggling with their MGU-K for 2018. Can you share your source?

You also said that "Horner says whatever is necessary to keep Cyrille happy". May I recommend reading his interviews from 2015 for instance? It seems to me tgat Horner is just using every trick he can find to get a better engine. He tried pressurizing Renault by publicly criticizing their job, he tried getting a new engine, he tried encouraging Renault to take outside help (Ilmor), ...

You also seem to believe Renault won't do much to help RBR getting a performant package this year. And although your reasoning "they have a works team, they will favor it" sounds logical, allow me to disagree. Renault's strategy in F1 has always been to get some podiums and wins, no matter who got it. They were perfectly happy with Red Bull/Vettel's winning streak in the V8 era and with Williams' championships in the early 90s. I strongly believe they would be very happy with a Red Bull or a McLaren taking the championship next year. Giving them crappy machinery could only make poor publicity : they are perfectly aware of how talkative someone like Marko or Alonso can be when they are dissatisfied with their engine. I don't see how that could be positive for the brand's image - which is why Renault does F1 in the first place.
1. Didn't Mclaren also have a contract with Honda in 2018?
2. Read around and you will find it.
3. Post 2015 when Red Bull looked like they were not going to have an engine to race with he has had to be more diplomatic.
4. The Relationship is not the same as it was during the V8 era is it and if Red Bull wins it will be because of Red Bull and Renault will not even get a mention as they don't appear on the Red Bull car. They gave Toro Rosso crap machinery at the end of 2017 and what would stop them doing the same thing to Red Bull.

Jolle
103
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by Jolle » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:22 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:56 pm
factory_p wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:40 pm

First of all, RBR and Renault have a contract for 2018. Breaking it to run a Honda engine would always be possible, but at a very dissuasive cost.

Then, you have mentioned several times that Renault is struggling with their MGU-K for 2018. Can you share your source?

You also said that "Horner says whatever is necessary to keep Cyrille happy". May I recommend reading his interviews from 2015 for instance? It seems to me tgat Horner is just using every trick he can find to get a better engine. He tried pressurizing Renault by publicly criticizing their job, he tried getting a new engine, he tried encouraging Renault to take outside help (Ilmor), ...

You also seem to believe Renault won't do much to help RBR getting a performant package this year. And although your reasoning "they have a works team, they will favor it" sounds logical, allow me to disagree. Renault's strategy in F1 has always been to get some podiums and wins, no matter who got it. They were perfectly happy with Red Bull/Vettel's winning streak in the V8 era and with Williams' championships in the early 90s. I strongly believe they would be very happy with a Red Bull or a McLaren taking the championship next year. Giving them crappy machinery could only make poor publicity : they are perfectly aware of how talkative someone like Marko or Alonso can be when they are dissatisfied with their engine. I don't see how that could be positive for the brand's image - which is why Renault does F1 in the first place.
1. Didn't Mclaren also have a contract with Honda in 2018?
2. Read around and you will find it.
3. Post 2015 when Red Bull looked like they were not going to have an engine to race with he has had to be more diplomatic.
4. The Relationship is not the same as it was during the V8 era is it and if Red Bull wins it will be because of Red Bull and Renault will not even get a mention as they don't appear on the Red Bull car. They gave Toro Rosso crap machinery at the end of 2017 and what would stop them doing the same thing to Red Bull.
For the last point, simple, it’s in the contract. Renault must provide RedBull with the exact same specifications as their works team.

HPD
204
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:06 pm

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by HPD » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:01 pm

"We notice the influence of the factory equipment on the engine installation, the engine architecture is now completely dictated by the factory equipment, the oil tank, the turbocharger, the exhaust ... It's not ideal for us," he says. Adrian Newey

"Renault has always been very good at dealing with their client teams, I did not feel that Renault was working to get better engines for their team, which was one of the reasons why we joined them in the V8 era."

carisi2k
18
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by carisi2k » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:14 pm

Jolle wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:22 pm
carisi2k wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:56 pm
factory_p wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:40 pm

First of all, RBR and Renault have a contract for 2018. Breaking it to run a Honda engine would always be possible, but at a very dissuasive cost.

Then, you have mentioned several times that Renault is struggling with their MGU-K for 2018. Can you share your source?

You also said that "Horner says whatever is necessary to keep Cyrille happy". May I recommend reading his interviews from 2015 for instance? It seems to me tgat Horner is just using every trick he can find to get a better engine. He tried pressurizing Renault by publicly criticizing their job, he tried getting a new engine, he tried encouraging Renault to take outside help (Ilmor), ...

You also seem to believe Renault won't do much to help RBR getting a performant package this year. And although your reasoning "they have a works team, they will favor it" sounds logical, allow me to disagree. Renault's strategy in F1 has always been to get some podiums and wins, no matter who got it. They were perfectly happy with Red Bull/Vettel's winning streak in the V8 era and with Williams' championships in the early 90s. I strongly believe they would be very happy with a Red Bull or a McLaren taking the championship next year. Giving them crappy machinery could only make poor publicity : they are perfectly aware of how talkative someone like Marko or Alonso can be when they are dissatisfied with their engine. I don't see how that could be positive for the brand's image - which is why Renault does F1 in the first place.
1. Didn't Mclaren also have a contract with Honda in 2018?
2. Read around and you will find it.
3. Post 2015 when Red Bull looked like they were not going to have an engine to race with he has had to be more diplomatic.
4. The Relationship is not the same as it was during the V8 era is it and if Red Bull wins it will be because of Red Bull and Renault will not even get a mention as they don't appear on the Red Bull car. They gave Toro Rosso crap machinery at the end of 2017 and what would stop them doing the same thing to Red Bull.
For the last point, simple, it’s in the contract. Renault must provide RedBull with the exact same specifications as their works team.
This is true but Red Bull and Renault have never gone into a season before where they knew they wouldn't be together the following year. Neither organisation had any option at the end of 2015 but at the end of 2018 the relationship is over. Red Bull is getting either Honda or Aston Martin engines in 2019 and therefore you should not be looking at what has happened beforehand between Red Bull and Renault because the circumstances are different.

If Renault is reliable then it most likely won't be an issue but if Renault aren't reliable then Red Bull will get the scraps just like Toro Rosso did at the end of 2017. A contract in F1 means nothing and Renault will have Red Bull by the scruff of the neck. This relationship is finished regardless of what any contract says.

The RB14 will probably be the third fastest car behind the W08 and whatever the Ferrari is called in 2018. If reliability is an issue then expect the RB14 to fall close to Renault and Mclaren.

FPV GTHO
3
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:57 am

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by FPV GTHO » Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:34 pm

Aston Martin engines are not happening before the new regulations, lets just take that one completely off the table.

carisi2k
18
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by carisi2k » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:30 am

FPV GTHO wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 11:34 pm
Aston Martin engines are not happening before the new regulations, lets just take that one completely off the table.
Maybe, but I included that option because the RB14 will be branded Aston Martin Red Bull Racing and we know that in 2019 a re-branded Renault will not be in the back of the rb15. If a Honda engine is in the back of the RB15 then why would Honda want another car companies brand involved?

Jolle
103
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by Jolle » Thu Jan 04, 2018 10:39 am

For the whole AM thing.... let me get this right, a company like RedBull is investing billions in their F1 team and surrounding advertising to have a small car company who hasn't build even a normal road engine in years, to build them a high tech (even when it would be less with 2021 rules) PU on which everything relies... while they have good connections with a known engine builder like Honda for instance....

yeah... sound logical....

carisi2k
18
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by carisi2k » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:02 am

Aston Martin wouldn't be building this new engine either. The new engine will be built by someone like Cosworth with input from illien and Aston Martin will just be branding it just as Tag Heuer currently brands the Renault engine.

I am in no way saying this will be the case but just that it is a possibility.

Jolle
103
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by Jolle » Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:15 am

And every team with cosworth engines for the past 25 years tried so hard to get a better deal that they even bought another team to get them (RedBull buying Minardi and Benneton buying Liger). If you want to win, you need a partner as big as Renault, Fiat or Daimler to compete.

Webber2011
40
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:01 am
Location: Australia NSW

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by Webber2011 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:43 pm

Jolle wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:15 am
And every team with cosworth engines for the past 25 years tried so hard to get a better deal that they even bought another team to get them (RedBull buying Minardi and Benneton buying Liger). If you want to win, you need a partner as big as Renault, Fiat or Daimler to compete.
I reckon if we put together all the smartest posters here on the forum together they could do it.
Make a whole new Team even.
No joke I really do, I'd even drive it for free !
Sponsors would be the toughest bit 😂

Seriously though, I do get your point mate.
There's no way you're going to win in this era unless you're one of the PU manufacturers with lots of experience.
Someone like Cosworth could possibly do it, but only with massive funding and access to state of the art F1 testing equipment.
Red Bull and McLaren are the only two I can think of who might be able to / want to provide that ?

I think it's obvious that Red Bull have put all their eggs in the Honda basket though.
So the whole Aston Martin thing sounds like a load of rubbish unless it's just branding, but I can't see Honda ever agreeing to that either.

godlameroso
235
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:44 pm

Besides Honda, there's BMW, Toyota, GM, Ford, or Porsche/Audi. The Americans won't ever set foot in f1 as engine suppliers. Chrysler is part of Fiat, but I doubt you'll ever see Dodge on the side of the red cars, maybe Haas would.

Anyway everyone else is too small time to make a power unit as complex as these, let alone be competitive.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

ME4ME
129
User avatar
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by ME4ME » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:48 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:44 pm
Anyway everyone else is too small time to make a power unit as complex as these, let alone be competitive.
That's what part of the 2021-engine debate is all about of course.

Jolle
103
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: Red Bull RB14 Speculation Thread

Post by Jolle » Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:52 pm

Webber2011 wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:43 pm
Jolle wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:15 am
And every team with cosworth engines for the past 25 years tried so hard to get a better deal that they even bought another team to get them (RedBull buying Minardi and Benneton buying Liger). If you want to win, you need a partner as big as Renault, Fiat or Daimler to compete.
I reckon if we put together all the smartest posters here on the forum together they could do it.
Make a whole new Team even.
No joke I really do, I'd even drive it for free !
Sponsors would be the toughest bit 😂

Seriously though, I do get your point mate.
There's no way you're going to win in this era unless you're one of the PU manufacturers with lots of experience.
Someone like Cosworth could possibly do it, but only with massive funding and access to state of the art F1 testing equipment.
Red Bull and McLaren are the only two I can think of who might be able to / want to provide that ?

I think it's obvious that Red Bull have put all their eggs in the Honda basket though.
So the whole Aston Martin thing sounds like a load of rubbish unless it's just branding, but I can't see Honda ever agreeing to that either.
It's not just the amount of engineers, but also all the data. That is where I think Daimler has the cutting edge over the competition. Their database is so big, that with a simple search they can have solutions in no-time or rule lots of stuff out, especially combined with the truck department. This is also one of the reasons Honda is taking so much time, they have to build much of this database.

As new possible successful entries in F1 I can only see VW/Porsche doing it, with their wide range of experience (from MAN/Scania to Porsche/Lambo)