Honda Power Unit

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
PlatinumZealot
270
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:23 am

Inertia is a trade off..
Inertia of the geartrain
Inertia of the motor

One will be sacrificed for the other.

If you use a one to one ratio with a pancake motor. That motor will spin slower, down to engine speeds. Slower spining motors require larger magnetic flux that requires bigger ferrite cores Increasing weight and inertia.

It is lighter and i reckon much less inertia to use a geared motor.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

godlameroso
164
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:44 am

Mudflap wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:51 am
From an inertia perspective the best setup would be a very low speed machine turning slower than the crank.

I was not debating the motor performance.

Regarding the previous valvetrain discussions - Honda's 990 cc motogp engine revved to 16000 rpm with single springs and buckets (which are known to have the highest friction compared to roller followers and fingers and up to 30% higher inertia compared to fingers).

I wonder if valve rotation can be achieved with PVRS. Given the durability requirements and the extreme exhaust valve temperatures valve wear must be quite hard to tackle. Maybe there is an advantage to springs after all ?
Do you suppose the high exhaust temperatures that produce NOx also contribute to valve seat recession?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Mudflap
47
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:11 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:44 am

Do you suppose the high exhaust temperatures that produce NOx also contribute to valve seat recession?
Absolutely, other than material tribological characteristics valve recession is mainly driven by temperature, seating velocity (it should be kinetic energy at closing really but for reasons unknown seating velocity is still used in the automotive industry) and to a lesser extent seat angle.

Some argue that peak cylinder pressure is also a factor but I'm not so sure.

I'd be very curious to know how they mitigate seat recession since the tradition seat materials used in motorsport have been relatively soft copper beryllium alloys - I imagine they must take quite a beating in an F1 engine.
Si vis pacem volve velox

Tommy Cookers
405
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:20 pm

traditionally SI engines have little or no oxygen in the exhaust gas
these engines have lots and so the oxidation potential might seem to be greater than otherwise
but the exhaust gas will be rather cool

high-strength copper beryllium can be quite hard and it could be mechanically hardened in situ
intentionally by use of dedicated rolling equipment and incidentally by valve impact
it would be rather elastically compliant under impact
it can go to 10000 microstrain elastically (at room temperature)
it will run cooler than the usual valve seat insert materials
in typical use it's pretty corrosion resistant

MrPotatoHead
48
User avatar
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:03 pm
Location: All over.

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by MrPotatoHead » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:36 pm

Tommy Cookers wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:20 pm
traditionally SI engines have little or no oxygen in the exhaust gas
these engines have lots and so the oxidation potential might seem to be greater than otherwise
but the exhaust gas will be rather cool

high-strength copper beryllium can be quite hard and it could be mechanically hardened in situ
intentionally by use of dedicated rolling equipment and incidentally by valve impact
it would be rather elastically compliant under impact
it can go to 10000 microstrain elastically (at room temperature)
it will run cooler than the usual valve seat insert materials
in typical use it's pretty corrosion resistant
If only the rules didn't prohibit Copper Beryllium seats now ;-)

Tommy Cookers
405
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Tommy Cookers » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:05 pm

this would be about 2.5% Beryllium 97.5% Copper

I would have guessed that's permitted
(the rules being written around permitting this material but prohibiting AlBeMet type materials of eg 50% Beryllium ?)

Mudflap
47
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:51 pm

Spot on TC - low Be content makes them legal.

I'm not convinced that the temperatures are as low as you might think though.
I have an article somewhere with a Cosworth study from 2013 that predicted 1050 C valve temperatures. By contrast they said that their 1000 hp V6 from the 80s reached 1100 C. I'll try to find the reference if people are interested.

While the seats can probably be a good 500 C cooler than the valve I still wonder if they are man enough to survive repeated contact/slippage with a valve that has a very high hardness.
Si vis pacem volve velox

godlameroso
164
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by godlameroso » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:16 pm

I'm guessing NHK makes Honda's valves? If someone can make valve springs for these engine speeds they can. And NHK valves are hard as diamonds. :lol:
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Mudflap
47
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Mudflap » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:01 pm

Toyota used Aisan manufactured valves. Other companies that have supplied F1 valves include Del West and Xceldyne.
G&S are also quite popular with british high end racing engine makers.

Honda have made their own valves for the LMP1 V8 but if I had to guess I'd say they are now getting them from Aisan.
Si vis pacem volve velox

PlatinumZealot
270
User avatar
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by PlatinumZealot » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:27 am

And here was I thinking that racing valves are "Easy to make" parts.
"Raindrops .. drop top!"

Rodak
1
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:02 am

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by Rodak » Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:44 am

Mudflap wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:01 pm
Toyota used Aisan manufactured valves. Other companies that have supplied F1 valves include Del West and Xceldyne.
G&S are also quite popular with british high end racing engine makers.

Honda have made their own valves for the LMP1 V8 but if I had to guess I'd say they are now getting them from Aisan.
Are these sodium filled valves for the exhaust?

seezung
30
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:01 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by seezung » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:26 pm


etusch
5
User avatar
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by etusch » Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:31 pm

İf 700 kw romour is true they are not much behind it.

loner
7
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:34 pm

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by loner » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:58 pm

etusch wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:31 pm
İf 700 kw romour is true they are not much behind it.
they are... , thats why they keep talking about wait until half season :mrgreen:
they doing it since 2015 when they said wait until the European races :mrgreen:
wazari spec 4 in 2017 Spa and Monza :lol:

amho
4
User avatar
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 8:15 pm
Location: Iran

Re: Honda Power Unit

Post by amho » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:15 pm

If honda can really increase power by 30-40 hp (as said previously) and more importantly improve fuel efficiency and duration of e-deployment then they can really make a significant progress in race.
Last year they were fuel saving all the time during race and once they were not fuel saving their laptime was quite competive, imagine in 2018 they don't have fuel saving for 40 laps then they can gain 25 -30 sec which makes difference...
Last edited by Steven on Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Remove quote of deleted post